NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg • Hacker News Board

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#181

Post by Rebelgecko » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 6:59 AM UTC

BinaryIdiot wrote: post #172

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

> It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. I feel like this has to be the biggest issue. When I worked in the DoD space as a constractor the amount of c…

I think the 2 main reasons to stick around long term would be the pension and getting 6+ weeks off a year. Not many private employers do that, and I imagine it is a huge boon for retention.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#182

Post by girardthelinear » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:00 AM UTC

eksemplar wrote: post #127

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

I work in the public sector, in Denmark, but I think a lot of the myths around public IT are just that, myths. We have some of the best talent in our country. We pay them less, but a lot of people prefer working in the public sector for a variety of reasons. Some are idealists who want to build a better society, others like the flexible hours and the paid sick leave for their children, others again like the relative…

Sorry going to have to disagree as well - I graduated from a top 3 CS school in the US and then when I recruit as well.

NSA has a booth and so does In Q Tel and a few others, but these are very sparsely attended. Where you'll see a line of 200+ for Facebook and maybe 1 person for NSA by accident sort of thing.

A number of the 3 letter agencies have very nice job propositions (you really can do work you can't do anywhere else) but their processes and bureaucracy (not to mention pay etc) really leave quite a bit to be desired.

For example a number of the NSA Presidential Fellows are ridiculously amazing, but for some reason (maybe my lack of exposure) I've not found them to stay in their role, or to necessarily be super positive about it.

Similarly when we were getting offers even with a lot of the red tape out of the way (e.g. already having a high level clearance), it would take months for paperwork - in the meantime you could get a few offers and deadlines for many of the well known companies.

Again similarly there were likely a handful that went to these agencies over the last 6yr and they were never our best + brightest; if you were drawn to that sort of work it made more sense to do a PhD with a NDSEG/NSF fellowship and do an internship at one of the military labs/NSA then to spend years there.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#183

Post by snowwrestler » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:00 AM UTC

kodablah wrote: post #158

snowwrestler wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Folks interested in a taste of how the federal government manages people can take a look at: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/ Much of the information in there carries the force of law; that is, a hiring supervisor cannot legally deviate from the process even if they think it is dumb and hurting their chances of getting the best candidate. My example of the subordinate who can't just get promoted has happene…

Wouldn't all of these (legal) rules, red tape, stories from your two personal friends, etc support the original argument that they employ patriots or the less qualified? Otherwise, why would a highly qualified person without any preference towards civic duty subject themselves to all of this when they have their pick of jobs? Especially in IT.

If the problem is attracting better people, how would that get fixed just by making it easier to fire people?

I wouldn't claim that the government has the best of the best across the board. In some areas they do, like fighter pilots or criminal investigators. In others, they generally don't, like web application developers.

What I disagree with is the idea that the government is full of incompetent people, who just need to get fired for things to speed up and get better. It ignores the reality of how the government really works, and therefore who joins the government and why.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#184

Post by metaphor » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:03 AM UTC

fern12 wrote: post #169

metaphor wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't know if this is a problem in the US... With respect to STEM career fields, that's a gratuitous no . For an idea of what a grunt GS-12/13 engineer's salary in Silicon Valley (highest locality adjustment in the country) looks like, see [1]; management is at GS-14/15 level. For the sake of completeness, other locality rates can be found here[2]. Keep in mind that it takes 18 years to progress from Step 1 to St…

>Keep in mind that it takes 18 years to progress from Step 1 to Step 10. This is true in some cases, but not all. I was hired at the GS-11/2 level without any prior government/military experience. A coworker of mine worked as a contractor for a few years, and was hired as a GS-15 last year. This is all in Silicon Valley (although he has a tech background, while I do not).

To be sure, the time it takes to progress from Step 1 to 10 has no bearing on the grade and step in which an employee is hired at.

If your colleague was hired into GS-15 Step 1, then it would still take this person the same 18 years to progress up the ladder to Step 10, assuming no irregular increases in pay.

If coming from private industry, entry step is often negotiable; prior industry salary serves as basis, so it wouldn't surprise me if this person started at Step 10 (not that it matters after Step 5 based on Bay Area locality).

In any case, GS-15 is a management position.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#185

Post by michael_storm » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:05 AM UTC

cgmg wrote: post #98

dimva wrote: post #82

This is a problem across all of government. As a mediocre senior software engineer with no reports, I was paid more last year than the goddamn President of the United States (and no, it's not because I got lucky with stock). This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Of course our choices are going to be Hillary vs Trump if we pay the top leader in the country less than a mediocre software engineer. Of course Hillar…

> This is completely stupid and unacceptable. Why? > Why does Sundar Pichai make 500x more than the President? Do we, as a society, value running Google well 500x more than running our government well? Why must the Presidency be the most highly-paid position for the government to run well? That is a ridiculous and silly assumption.

Why must the CEO of Google be the most highly-paid position for Google to run well? The point is that the pay for participating in self-interested capitalist endeavors leads to outsize rewards compared to those dedicated to serving society. (Including thousands of career civil servants, since leadership positions have their own trappings.) If we value those who serve society, perhaps we should pay them commensurate with how much we value them -- and get better results in the bargain.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#186

Post by watwut » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:05 AM UTC

smallnamespace wrote: post #137

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I have no data to offer, but I do have a simple, heuristic model that might hint at GP's thinking process: 1. tolerance to short-term career uncertainty varies greatly between individuals (e.g. changing jobs, moving, having money in the bank to cushion the cashflow turbulence) 2. the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability 3. if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly po…

"if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly positively correlated to general 'ability'"

That is seriously odd assumption. It sounds like confusing "personality trait that appeals to me on emotional level" with ability.

Plenty of inable unstable people around as far as I can tell. Plenty of low ability risk takers too.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#187

Post by Bahamut » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:06 AM UTC

kakaorka wrote: post #87

auntienomen wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Response to your postscript: I know quite a few people who've worked for the NSA's mathematical research arms. They're not numpties. They're among the smartest people I've ever met (and I've been hanging around tier 1 research institutes, both public and private, my whole adult life).

Maybe that's because one of the biggest hiring firms for mathematicians is the NSA.

Not one of - they’re famous for being THE biggest employer of mathematicians.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#188

Post by greggman » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:08 AM UTC

eadmund wrote: post #88

smallnamespace wrote: post #3

It seems like it's pretty hard for the government to compete with private industry in compensation. Federal pay grades are capped by Congress, and the top grade is around ~$150k a year [1]. And note that since it's the top of the scale, you have to start people off lower so that there is salary progression. Pretty sure a top cryptographer or security expert should be worth several times that, especially if they are a…

The problem is that we can (and should!) raise government pay scales, but we must also make it easier to fire people (or manage them downwards) for incompetence. Government work is for two types of people (and there's some overlap on the Euler diagram): patriots, and folks who can't hack it in civilian life. It's not just a 'perception of gov't incompetence': it's a widespread phenomenon. Government employees tend to…

Completely non sequitur but if you've never see it check out "Ikiru" by Akira Kurosawa. It's a movie about a government employee that's been doing nothing but serving the organization customers his whole life until he finds out he has cancer.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0044741/

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#189

Post by zorpner » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:08 AM UTC

smallnamespace wrote: post #137

snowwrestler wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's popular to say things like some government employees are "folks who can't hack it in civilian life," but there's basically no evidence this is true. First of all, let's make sure we look at the full scope of civilian life with a sober eye. Anyone working the counter at your local Post Office could easily work the register at any grocery store in your town. And any medium to large company has plenty of internal p…

I have no data to offer, but I do have a simple, heuristic model that might hint at GP's thinking process: 1. tolerance to short-term career uncertainty varies greatly between individuals (e.g. changing jobs, moving, having money in the bank to cushion the cashflow turbulence) 2. the gov't largely underpays in dollars in return for high career stability 3. if level of tolerance to short-term disruption is strongly po…

it's usually the most capable people with that cash available (because they had more earning power in the past)

It's far more typically because of inherited wealth, which has no bearing on ability but is quite often misinterpreted as such.

Re: NSA’s top talent is leaving because of low pay, flagging morale, unpopular reorg

#190

Post by girardthelinear » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 7:10 AM UTC

auntienomen wrote: post #64

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if the NSA is going to spy on us, wouldn't you like that to be as secure as possible? I have a friend who worked for the NSA. We had a heart to heart over drinks about a year ago. She asked what I thought about her working there. I responded, honestly, that if I didn't know her personally I'd be starting to wonder if she was, for whatever reason, unable to pass muster at Google et cetera . Not the best decision to…

Response to your postscript: I know quite a few people who've worked for the NSA's mathematical research arms. They're not numpties. They're among the smartest people I've ever met (and I've been hanging around tier 1 research institutes, both public and private, my whole adult life).

> most of the tech companies, banks, insurance, a number of retail corps as well as consulting all hire mathematicians.

the NSA is a bit overhyped there