As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting • Hacker News Board

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#211

Post by pm90 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

throwaway7312 wrote: post #140

brohoolio wrote: post #16

Trump is going to ruin the American economy. Attack universities by discouraging foreign students. Cut federal funding for research. Encourage political attacks on universities. The most damaging will be not forgiving student loans from people who went to scam universities, like Trump university. What Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that man…

>> Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that manufacture knowledge, innovation and the future. There is another side to this. And that is that the American university system has a distinct political agenda that is opposed to the interests of the Trump-supporting half of the American electorate. It is a bad thing for innovation when there are fewe…

Most of those who think highly of Universities have been educated at Universities. And they don't believe in it because they have all had a positive experience: that is statistically impossible. But they are aware of what it is and what it isn't.

The divide isn't half and half as you put it. Rural areas wield a lot more political power nationally simply because of the way our system is structured. The half that is on the right is old and white. In the coming decades, they will cease to exist (apologies for sounding morbid, I'm just stating facts) and their political influence will reduce dramatically.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#212

Post by NTDF9 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:14 PM UTC

ForRealsies wrote: post #206

cm2187 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fourth downside: there are exceptions but most of the US educated foreign students who go back home tend to have a good opinion of the US and also tend to make a good career at home. This is a very powerful form of soft power.

Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un.

>> Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un.

It did. You don't see Kim Jong Un threatening Switzerland.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#213

Post by netheril96 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

sombremesa wrote: post #90

dmode wrote: post #42

I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies

All you have to do is get married to an American. You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.

Indian/Chinese men are much less desired than whites and sometimes blacks and latinos in the US dating market. Marrying an American is probably harder than alternative approaches, at least for males from these countries.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#214

Post by pm90 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:24 PM UTC

rdtsc wrote: post #153

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

> First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't affo…

> Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful.

Tell me why out of state students will pay significantly higher tuition when they can get a cheaper education in their State College? And are you saying that the State University wouldn't prefer Americans in their undergraduate programs? (please don't lob some racism/conspiracy theory: University administrators are Americans, and probably prefer Americans over others) It seems like international students are the only ones willing to pay higher out of state.

> Not really. Undergraduate students are minimally involved in research. (You did read the article to sew that it talks primarily about undergraduate students, right?).

The kernel of interest in research is laid during undergraduate study. US universities are in general better at promoting research during undergrad. Most undergrad programs focus more on learning than conducting research, simply because many don't even have graduate research programs of caliber. But many US universities do.

> Some would have and some do. But it's not a program geared for permanent residence. There was an option to do a short internship / co-op with that visa after graduation but that was about it.

Its not directly. But the hope is that the brightest and hard working will stay.

> As I said, from what I have seen in this case it is mostly students who come from wealthy families. Do we need more students from wealthy international families in US? I don't know, maybe. I would rather it be based on merit, so perhaps refocus that effort towards graduate students in certain fields or who manage to do exceptionally well in their studies.

You say this as if these wealthy students have no merit. Its not easy to get into US universities, especially as an international student. You have to have merit and wealth. I don't see why Universities shouldn't prefer students with both merit and wealth?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#215

Post by cm2187 » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:25 PM UTC

ForRealsies wrote: post #206

cm2187 wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fourth downside: there are exceptions but most of the US educated foreign students who go back home tend to have a good opinion of the US and also tend to make a good career at home. This is a very powerful form of soft power.

Switzerland did wonders for Kim Jong Un.

There are other notable exceptions. Pol Pot was educated in Paris. But I wouldn't be surprised if the Chinese elites being educated in the US did have a big role in the conversion of China to capitalism for example.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#216

Post by eastWestMath » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:31 PM UTC

IronKettle wrote: post #193

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

.... sports? Only if they aren't something that attract a crowd. I see very few colleges cutting basketball or football programs so they don't have to maintain stadiums any more.

Because those two sports are largely profitable and often subsidize other sports.

Yeah the entire NCAA system is basically funded by young men playing basketball and football, a few who are objectively being cheated out of millions of dollars (because the ncaa lobbies the nfl and nba to have minimum age requirements).

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#217

Post by moduspol » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #186

throwaway7312 wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Trump and others don’t recognize is that the American university system is a distributed system of factories that manufacture knowledge, innovation and the future. There is another side to this. And that is that the American university system has a distinct political agenda that is opposed to the interests of the Trump-supporting half of the American electorate. It is a bad thing for innovation when there are fewe…

Disclaimer: I'm not American. But my view is that the American right has placed itself outside the Overton window of anyone with a higher education. For example, the President is a climate change denier. How do you expect those views to be represented in universities when they fly in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence? In most countries, this problem doesn't exist because parties with ideas equivalent to th…

> For example, the President is a climate change denier. How do you expect those views to be represented in universities when they fly in the face of overwhelming scientific evidence?

That scientific evidence is created, studied and reviewed by people who self-select to study it and are very much part of the overwhelming liberal bias in academia.

That's not to say the evidence isn't valid--but this is kind of a "chicken and egg" situation. If you already distrust academia, you are less likely to unconditionally accept that groupthink and bias could have no possible impact on the conclusions. You can't personally measure changes in climate without implicitly trusting the measurements and adjustments of these institutions, so it's tougher to accept the need for dramatic changes in policy.

Put differently: If science in academia had more conservative thinkers, the party's position might change, or at least soften over time. Or it's even possible the science could be made better by having more diverse viewpoints in the fields.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#218

Post by dominotw » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

This is also a way for a country to young, healthy and educated immmigrants, the most vaunted kind.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#219

Post by mathattack » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:50 PM UTC

Losing international students is bad, but the cuts they claim are hardly draconian. Given the current environment (high change, bloated costs, online education) we should expect massive changes at non-flagship public schools. Should local students working full time pay to subsidize a money losing swim team? (Independent of internationals)

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#220

Post by whack » Wed, Jan 03, 2018, 1:51 PM UTC

pkaye wrote: post #74

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

I wonder how many of these students come primarily for the subsequent job opportunities. If they were able to come for the education but not the subsequent OPT, would they still be willing to come? I've seen the tuition some of them paying like $50k/year and not sure how they can afford it unless they are hoping for big returns afterwards.

You just answered your own question. If the only thing they cared about was the OPT, why would they pay $50k/year to attend a well-known university, when they can instead pay a fraction of that to attend a university no one knows about, and still get the OPT.