Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

mobile.nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

161–170 of 297 posts

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#161

Post by seanmcdirmid »

fellellor wrote: post #122
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

>Racism against Americans is still racism. It's unproductive to dismiss a factual claim as racist. You can simply show data that disproves the parent's claim and implicitly confirm their racist tendencies towards Americans rather than screeching "racism".

The claim wasn’t factual, it was blatantly racist. How do you fight an unfactual claim with data? How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? These kinds of claims are not designed to be argued with data, they are simply designed to be decisive and hurtful.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#162

Post by nishs »

dmode wrote: post #42

I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies

s/Indian students/international students ?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#163

Post by dragonwriter »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #161
fellellor wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Racism against Americans is still racism. It's unproductive to dismiss a factual claim as racist. You can simply show data that disproves the parent's claim and implicitly confirm their racist tendencies towards Americans rather than screeching "racism".

The claim wasn’t factual, it was blatantly racist. How do you fight an unfactual claim with data? How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? These kinds of claims are not designed to be argued with data, they are simply designed to be decisive and hurtful.

> The claim wasn’t factual

Yes, it was. That is, it was a claim about a matter of fact.

> How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners?

There's a number of possible operationalizations of productivity applicable to a Ph.D. program that are measurable and by which the issue could be addressed. Usually, the first thing to do would be to challenge the party making the dubious claim to both provide their operationalization and show data supporting the characterization.

It's quite possible that after that, the result would be that it would be fair to dismiss the claim as inadequately supported (although the mere fact that a single claim asserting a difference in performance based on nationality is inadequately supported does not, in and of itself, provide more than extremely weak evidence that the claim comes from racism.)

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#164

Post by gaius »

melling wrote: post #95
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain. China’s economy will pass the US’s in the 2030’s, for example. India will rise to #3. We should expect more R&D from the rest of the world. China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research. Billions of people will come out of poverty. American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost.

China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research

China yes, but is there a lot of drug research coming out of India right now? Their pharma industry seems largely based around mass-producing generics.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#165

Post by gaius »

tanilama wrote: post #77
janekm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You underestimate the value of an “overseas” degree in “developing” countries like China. A student who comes back to China with a US/UK degree will get preferential access to first-tier city resident permits, direct financial “housing” benefits from the city, a good job and faster career advancement and more besides. Some of those benefits are starting to get scaled back but it’s still a big advantage.

U overstated it vastly...In China, UK degrees got so inflated, many of which being one year master, that they are pretty useless now.Oversea working experience is still valued

In China, UK degrees got so inflated

This is driven by ex-poly degree mills cashing in. If you’re studying in the UK it’s Russell Group is still prestigious for the right reasons. Otherwise the value is questionable.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#166

Post by acover »

dragonwriter wrote: post #163
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim wasn’t factual, it was blatantly racist. How do you fight an unfactual claim with data? How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? These kinds of claims are not designed to be argued with data, they are simply designed to be decisive and hurtful.

> The claim wasn’t factual Yes, it was. That is, it was a claim about a matter of fact. > How would you prove that Americans were less or more productive than foreigners? There's a number of possible operationalizations of productivity applicable to a Ph.D. program that are measurable and by which the issue could be addressed. Usually, the first thing to do would be to challenge the party making the dubious claim to…

The party making the claim is using anecdotal evidence. They have no data. I do not think anecdotal evidence is good evidence for such a strong claim. This makes the claim an opinion and not factual. This is only my opinion.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#167

Post by uoaei »

xkcd-sucks wrote: post #85
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

So besides the loss in basic research, is it bad that universities should get squeezed? ...in a universe where superfluous administration is cut first, it is not.

Yeah, the problem is that they don't cut admin first. They cut newspapers, and sports, and bring in adjuncts who cost a lot less and are desperate for work.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#168

Post by tareqak »

gaius wrote: post #164
melling wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is all negative for the US but our loss is the world’s gain. China’s economy will pass the US’s in the 2030’s, for example. India will rise to #3. We should expect more R&D from the rest of the world. China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research. Billions of people will come out of poverty. American students may flock to India to get a better education at a fraction of the cost.

China may lead the world in AI and space exploration. India in drug research China yes, but is there a lot of drug research coming out of India right now? Their pharma industry seems largely based around mass-producing generics.

India's approach is line with their needs: the vast majority of their population need cheaper access to common life-saving drugs that you and I take for granted: once a significantly large number of their population "levels-up" in terms of wealth, education, and health, the research will follow.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#169

Post by maruhan2 »

pkaye wrote: post #74
lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

I wonder how many of these students come primarily for the subsequent job opportunities. If they were able to come for the education but not the subsequent OPT, would they still be willing to come? I've seen the tuition some of them paying like $50k/year and not sure how they can afford it unless they are hoping for big returns afterwards.

Most students studying abroad plan to work in that country

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#170

Post by cm2187 »

lewis500 wrote: post #40

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

Fourth downside: there are exceptions but most of the US educated foreign students who go back home tend to have a good opinion of the US and also tend to make a good career at home. This is a very powerful form of soft power.
Post reply on HN