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As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

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Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>go back home for a job Haha. Not really. American salaries, standards of living are among the highest/best in the planet. Plus an abundance of economic opportunities and relatively low discrimination compared to what one may face in other developed countries. These are the only factors which decide whether a family sends their kid to the US for higher ed or not. The degrees themselves aren't worth much at all. Unles…

My old country gave to whoever returns home with a foreign degree up to 95% salary match from what they would have made if they stayed. You can rack $100k USD, in a country where average yearly salary is $2k and living expenses are nil. When you talk about 'standard of living', imagine what standard of living you'd have in USA at 50x average salary. If I'm not mistaken that would be around 1-2 million a year. Add to…

Certainly not true for India (second largest contributor of international students, behind China [1]). By my (extremely unscientific) estimate, less than 5% of Indian students arriving in the US for higher education go back to work in India.

[1] https://www.iie.org/Why-IIE/Announcements/2017-11-13-Open-Do...

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#152
post #42

I would highly recommend to Indian students not to study in the US going forward. At least until the generally hostile attitude towards immigrants and meaningful reforms in GC attainment is done. If you plan to lay down your roots in America after school, it will simply not happen in the current climate. Go study in Canada, Australia, UK, and India and contribute to those societies

All you have to do is get married to an American. You could be the best and brightest or the dumb and dullest, won't matter.

Apart from that being fraud (marriage for the sole purpose of citizenship), getting married is not the top priority for most at that age.

Also, as part of the F-1 visa requirement they're required to demonstrate homeland ties that indicate there is a high chance they'll return after completing the course.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#153

There are really three different downsides to this. First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc. Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty. Resear…

> First, the foreign students cross-subsidize the locals' education. There are large fixed costs to running a university and these students pay way above their marginal costs. So now the universities have fewer resources; hence cutting the newspaper funding etc.

Well any out-of-state student would do that not just international ones. There is a deeper problem there in that these universities perhaps simply can't afford to have 10 foreign languages or gyms or sports clubs. Using international students to keep those going seems a bit of a round-about way. Since many of those are state schools, maybe seeing why the states have cut funding to the schools is more useful.

> Second, the foreign students increase the schools' reputations and can collaborate with the faculty.

Not really. Undergraduate students are minimally involved in research. (You did read the article to sew that it talks primarily about undergraduate students, right?).

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone.

As I mentioned, the article doesn't talk much about PhDs and is mostly focused on international students. In my own undergraduate program, international students were about average or worse than American ones. The few that I knew were struggling with English and others were "struggling" with academic honesty. I won't mention which country they are from but I think people here might figure it out. Many were in school because their wealthy parents had money to send them more than say being chosen for their academic performance.

> Third, immigration: some of the foreign students would have wound up staying.

Some would have and some do. But it's not a program geared for permanent residence. There was an option to do a short internship / co-op with that visa after graduation but that was about it.

> Educated people who work hard and are ambitious enough to go overseas and stay are good for the country.

As I said, from what I have seen in this case it is mostly students who come from wealthy families. Do we need more students from wealthy international families in US? I don't know, maybe. I would rather it be based on merit, so perhaps refocus that effort towards graduate students in certain fields or who manage to do exceptionally well in their studies.

In general it seems to me you have conflated and mixed undergraduate and graduate international student groups. For the purpose of discussion there are quite distinct in how admission, tuition, research funding and self-selection works. It seems your arguments apply more to graduate students even though the article is mostly about undergraduates. You made good points in general, but for clarity, you might want to update your comment mentioning the difference.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. I think the bias has swung way too far the other way. Racism against Americans is still racism. Also, this applies mainly to undergrads (full paying students), not PhD students who are generally fully funded.

>Racism against Americans is still racism. It's unproductive to dismiss a factual claim as racist. You can simply show data that disproves the parent's claim and implicitly confirm their racist tendencies towards Americans rather than screeching "racism".

> In my own PhD program, the productivity of the Americans was much lower than the foreigners. That productivity led to discoveries that benefit everyone.

The original claim was an anecdote generalized to everyone. They are stereotyping millions of people based off a handful they have met.

It could be true. The reverse could be true. We don't have good data. Why assume that there are differences based on background?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#155
post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's obviously not the only skill involved. Please don't post reflexively dismissive comments to HN.

I would argue the primary qualification of teaching Italian is knowing Italian, but yes, many other skills are involved. Every job that exists requires a multitude of skills, but there is usually a primary skill. I would disagree that I was being “reflexively dismissive” and given the following commentary and upvotes, would appear a majority agree than disagree. But I appreciate your opinion.

Reflexively dismissive comments often get lots of upvotes, especially when the dismissal expresses a common prejudice. That is a weakness of the upvoting system, not evidence of goodness in a comment.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#156
post #71
post #10

This is bad news. People like Sergey Brin, co-founder of Google, Elon Musk, founder of Tesla and SpaceX, not to mention CEOs of Google, Microsoft and Adobe all came to the US as students. Without the immigration of the brightest on the planet, the US will, over time, lose its edge.

Wikipedia says: "Brin immigrated to the United States with his family from the Soviet Union at the age of 6." A student?

Elementary student ;-)

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sergey Brin went to Stanford. Musk went to UPenn and Stanford. Picchai went to Wharton and the University of Chicago. Narayan went to UC Berkeley. Only Brin and Musk came as undergrads and only Nadella originated at a so-so school: Wisconsin-Milwaukee (he made his way to an MBA at Chicago, too). By and large the article is not talking about those people. Undergrads are where schools make their money (lots of graduate…

This is also an issue at Stanford, UPenn and so on. But as you probably know, those schools will never in a million years go candid with a reporter about it (due to prestige and other issues).

> This is also an issue at Stanford, UPenn and so on.

Stanford has an endowment of 22.2 billion. UPenn has one of 12.2 billion.

The University of Missouri school system has an endowment of 1.2 billion spread over 4 campuses.

I doubt that Stanford and UPenn would feel the pinch over the next century. Even the income off the interest of the endowment would probably suffice for campus upkeep and professors' salaries.

Missouri's timeframe is drastically shorter, as they have four times the physical facilities to take care of and ~4 times the professor salaries.

Also, who would be easier to find grants from either the public or private sectors? Stanford professors with industry contacts, Ivy League professors with that cachet, or somebody from a regional public school?

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Racism against Americans is still racism. "Americans" is now a race? How about Texans or Australians? If I say that I hate Australians because of their silly accents, am I now a racist? Race and national citizenship are very different concepts.

Not sure why people are downvoting this. It’s illogical to claim you can be racist against diverse countries like the USA or Australia. Pretty sure the OP is more referring to xenophobia than racism.

race

noun

Definition of race for Students

1 : any one of the groups that human beings can be divided into based on shared distinctive physical traits

>>> 2 : a group of individuals who share a common culture or history the English race 3 : a major group of living things the human race

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/race

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am yet to meet a single American who didn’t have access to college because of an international student. High tuition and fees are always the number one culprit.

I suspect he means graduate school. I'm white and have a native accent, but in my 2 short years of grad school I had four (!) instances of someone responding with shock at learning that I was a US citizen. One postsdoc even asked flat out what the hell I was doing in grad school if I wasn't working towards a green card.

what field are you working in? my cs grad student experience was not like that.

Re: As Flow of Foreign Students Wanes, U.S. Universities Feel the Sting

#160
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Regarding PhDs, grad international enrollment is declining. Your source on that? All the schools I’m in contact with are still as international as ever in their CS PhD departments. I’m not sure what the trends are outside of CS, but I can’t imagine they would be very different. I think you are just pulling this number out of thin air. Research is funded quite differently from undergrad programs. Sure, fewer TAships…

Recent surveys do appear to support a slowdown in international graduate school enrollments ([1] summary, [2] original study). Furthermore, this trend predates the immigration policies of the current administration, and I suspect this trend has further strengthened. [1] https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/09/28/graduate-scho... [2] http://cgsnet.org/ckfinder/userfiles/files/CGS_GED16_Report_...

Both of those state there is a slowdown in enrollment percentage (and only .9% at that), not absolute numbers. There are still more international graduate students in 2017 than in any previous year.
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