Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android • Hacker News Board

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#181

Post by muhfuhkuh » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:01 AM UTC

cscotta wrote: post #7

The biggest issue I see with Oracle's lawsuit is not with Android itself, but the future of Java as an open platform. The claims are pretty serious, and Oracle is going straight for the jugular. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out, but I've got to hope that Google will come out of this in good shape for the sake of Java. It's unfortunate that Oracle is interpreting Google's implementation of Dalvik and a Ja…

"It'll be interesting to see Oracle's stance toward other alternate JVMs such as IBM's."

IBM could completely paralyze the entire computer industry with their portfolio. That they don't is a testament to how much money they earn in simply letting others do the "hard" PC stuff while they singularly engulf the big iron market.

IBM was the only company that I know of that actually outlasted the US government in antitrust litigation. The DoJ, after 15 YEARS of litigation, simply dropped the case due to lack of will and resources to continue. Oracle wouldn't dare try IBM in court.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#182

Post by davidw » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:03 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #2

"Java is the single most important software we've ever acquired," Oracle Chief Executive Larry Ellison said during a conference call [...] ... "and if you don't do everything I say, I'll blow up the moon! Ah-hahahahah!" How do you not love this guy? Somebody get him a black cape.

I'd throw him to a hungry pack of grammar nazis just for the 'software' bit.

Maybe he's irritated that Google has been getting all the 'evil' headlines lately and wanted to outdo them.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#183

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:04 AM UTC

cscotta wrote: post #7

The biggest issue I see with Oracle's lawsuit is not with Android itself, but the future of Java as an open platform. The claims are pretty serious, and Oracle is going straight for the jugular. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out, but I've got to hope that Google will come out of this in good shape for the sake of Java. It's unfortunate that Oracle is interpreting Google's implementation of Dalvik and a Ja…

[deleted]

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#184

Post by snth » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:13 AM UTC

guelo wrote: post #119

My dream for wrestling my profession away from the lawyers and CEOs is the formation of a programmer's union. The union would mainly be concerned with issues like these patents. A strike would be called on any company that tried to use software patents. A strike would mean not only that the programmers of that company would stop working, but also all programmers nationwide would refuse to work on that company's produ…

> If such a union existed it would immediately stop the use of software patents.

Or companies would just hire overseas programmers...

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#185

Post by Confusion » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:25 AM UTC

shasta wrote: post #32

cscotta wrote: post #7

The biggest issue I see with Oracle's lawsuit is not with Android itself, but the future of Java as an open platform. The claims are pretty serious, and Oracle is going straight for the jugular. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out, but I've got to hope that Google will come out of this in good shape for the sake of Java. It's unfortunate that Oracle is interpreting Google's implementation of Dalvik and a Ja…

Oracle may claim that Google infringes on all those patents, but they'll never sue. Patents are just a nuclear deterrent. Edit: Wow, -7 and dropping. I guess I should have included a sarcasm symbol. Spoiler: My point was that patents do get used, and this argument about them just being for defense is nonsense.

A nuclear deterrent only works if both sides have nukes. Google is a pretty young company, with few patents. Oracle is a much older company, that bought many old companies along the way. Oracle's patent portfolio vastly outstrips that of Google.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#186

Post by Confusion » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:27 AM UTC

shasta wrote: post #44

tptacek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Careful. The name of a title and its actual claims are two very different things.

Well, here's claim 1: In a computer system, a method for increasing the execution speed of virtual machine instructions, the method comprising: - inputting virtual machine instructions for a function; - compiling a portion of the function into at least one native machine instruction so that the function includes both virtual and native machine instruction; and - overwriting a selected virtual machine instruction of t…

Again, as tptacek already said: careful. The summary isn't the actual claim either. The devil is in the details.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#187

Post by bad_user » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:28 AM UTC

js4all wrote: post #161

kingkilr wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Interpreting functions utilizing a hybrid of virtual and native machine instructions Are they serious? Unless I'm missing something this is a fantastic joke, JITs far predate Java.

Careful. Hotspot compiling was introduced with the JVM.

There is prior art in Smaltalk and Self ... the Hotspot compiler itself is an old Smaltalk implementation that Sun bought, open-sourced recently by SUN btw ... http://www.strongtalk.org/

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#188

Post by Confusion » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:31 AM UTC

What I don't understand and can't find anywhere: what is in it for Oracle? Do they want licensing fees? Do they want to destroy Android? Do they want Google to grant them licenses to certain patents Google owns?

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#189

Post by bad_user » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:38 AM UTC

WildUtah wrote: post #105

seldo wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, it naively hadn't occurred to me that Android would be using a non-Sun JVM, and given what you've said it seems that would be a viable route for an IP lawsuit (though it still seems in pretty bad faith).

Dalvik would be better if Google had just licensed Oracle's Sun JVM or used the open source version. As an occasional Android developer I am constantly banging against the limitations and performance of Dalvik. It doesn't do memory management nearly as well as the JVM, and it handles dynamic dispatch and one-off closure hacks (local classes) slowly. It won't easily accept generated bytecodes. It has mysterious perfor…

You haven't worked with Java ME then ;)

Dalvik limitations are very justified, and even if phones improve over time, Dalvik also evolves.

Also when going head to head with Apple and Microsoft on such a far-reaching platform, having full control over your platform is valuable.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#190

Post by bad_user » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 7:42 AM UTC

jchonphoenix wrote: post #160

The most worrisome factor in this lawsuit is how this will impact java as a language and a platform. If Google loses this lawsuit, java as a language and platform could easily die. Many companies would refuse to use it, just to be on the safe side and avoid litigation from Oracle. Oracle probably doesn't realize the massive damage it has done to the java platform just by going forward with this suit. Due to the loomi…

> At least C# has lambdas...

And an open-source alternative which compared to other open-source Java efforts, is in pretty good shape, and also has a pledge from Microsoft.

I feel attracted by .NET, but every time I end up using it I wish I didn't ... it's like every year I wish for summer to go to the beach, but when it's finally summer and I'm at the beach ... it's too hot, it's too crowded, the water is dirty and I don't want to be there :)