Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android • Hacker News Board

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#151

Post by seldo » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:19 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #127

icey wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for this explanation. Until reading it this way my understanding of the whole affair was somewhat wrong. Given that Oracle doesn't seem shy about going after a giant like Google makes me wonder what other software Sun owned the rights to that might be even remotely popular. If I were a company using a lot of old Sun IP in even moderately unique ways, I'd be a little concerned right now.

MySQL? BerkeleyDB?

Well, Sun own MySQL. But the drop-in replacement MySQL engine makers (infobright, percona, etc) might be a little worried.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#152

Post by tezza » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:22 AM UTC

zmmmmm wrote: post #116

jarin wrote: post #54

The headline should read "Oracle sues Google over literally the only thing keeping Java relevant".

I don't necessarily agree about relevance, but I do find it quite mind boggling that Oracle would strike out against what is clearly a massive growth opportunity for Java. If they want to destroy the Java brand the fastest way possible then definitely the right thing to do is start suing people who are using Java. The million dollar question is why would anybody in their right mind do this?

" The million dollar question is why would anybody in their right mind do this?"

A slice of Android sales revenue... Perhaps as high as US$1 per handset would be nice.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#153

Post by teilo » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:22 AM UTC

Eliezer wrote: post #92

I like this headline because if we sent it back in time 30 years it wouldn't make any sense at all.

Oh, that made my day. I'm still going to laugh every time I think about this days from now.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#154

Post by pjscott » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:22 AM UTC

waldrews wrote: post #131

What does this mean for the almost-but-not-quite-JVM implementation in GAE?

Do you have a link that explains more? The GAE docs say they use "the Java 6 virtual machine (JVM)."

http://code.google.com/appengine/docs/java/overview.html

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#155

Post by seldo » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:22 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #129

WildUtah wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dalvik would be better if Google had just licensed Oracle's Sun JVM or used the open source version. As an occasional Android developer I am constantly banging against the limitations and performance of Dalvik. It doesn't do memory management nearly as well as the JVM, and it handles dynamic dispatch and one-off closure hacks (local classes) slowly. It won't easily accept generated bytecodes. It has mysterious perfor…

On the flip side, how do you know you wouldn't run up against those limitations on a phone that used OpenJDK? I don't do much mobile dev, but I've had friends that did JavaME development, and they didn't seem to like it any more than Android. Dalvik was designed specifically because Sun's JVM performed poorly on memory-constrained devices. In other words, your issues may be caused by mobile development, not by Androi…

Given that Eric Schmidt is the former head of Java at Sun, it seems unlikely they'd have written their own JVM if they didn't have a good reason to do so. Also, JavaME is awful.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#156

Post by Niten » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:25 AM UTC

bitsai wrote: post #14

What implications, if any, does this have for the future of JVM languages like Scala, Clojure, etc.?

Clojure will be fine, at least. I think I remember Rich saying it was explicitly designed as a multi-VM language in an interview somewhere. Anyway, he already has an official, apparently actively maintained port of Clojure to the .NET CLR:

http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr/

Now porting your Clojure applications between VMs may or may not be a reasonable proposition depending on what kind of non-Clojure pure Java libraries you depend upon, but the fate of the Clojure language is thankfully not tied to the fate of the Java runtime.

I think Scala has a .NET port too, but I don't know if it's active.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#157

Post by chmike » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:35 AM UTC

patrickaljord wrote: post #30

tptacek wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you can. There'd be no such thing as an enforceable software patent if any company could just sponsor an open source project to implement each part of its product that infringed a patent. Presumably --- hopefully 'grellas will clear this up --- Oracle can measure damages incurred by Google supplanting Sun/Oracle Java with their own Java in terms of percentage points of global smartphone revenue. Here's some…

Sun licensed Java under the GPL which gives access to all of the patents on Java. But Google uses its own Java, not Sun's GPL licensed one, maybe they should have gone with the GPL instead...

Why didn't they do it ? Is it because of lack of ARM support ?

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#158

Post by MartinCron » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:36 AM UTC

Timothee wrote: post #83

gahahaha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He is just trying to save /more/ children in Africa. http://online.wsj.com/article/NA_WSJ_PUB:SB10001424052748704... Larry Ellison is a saint! ... and an asshole.

The letter he wrote for the Giving Pledge website actually shows a bit of him being a saint and an asshole: http://givingpledge.org/#larry_ellison To whom it may concern, Many years ago, I put virtually all of my assets into a trust with the intent of giving away at least 95% of my wealth to charitable causes. I have already given hundreds of millions of dollars to medical research and education, and I will give bill…

This letter increased my admiration of the man greatly.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#159

Post by gchpaco » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:39 AM UTC

nostrademons wrote: post #129

WildUtah wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dalvik would be better if Google had just licensed Oracle's Sun JVM or used the open source version. As an occasional Android developer I am constantly banging against the limitations and performance of Dalvik. It doesn't do memory management nearly as well as the JVM, and it handles dynamic dispatch and one-off closure hacks (local classes) slowly. It won't easily accept generated bytecodes. It has mysterious perfor…

On the flip side, how do you know you wouldn't run up against those limitations on a phone that used OpenJDK? I don't do much mobile dev, but I've had friends that did JavaME development, and they didn't seem to like it any more than Android. Dalvik was designed specifically because Sun's JVM performed poorly on memory-constrained devices. In other words, your issues may be caused by mobile development, not by Androi…

The Sun JVM is a lot of things and got a lot better and a lot faster over time, but it is an astounding memory hog. Only thing I've ever seen that will (seriously) reserve 64 bits for a Boolean field on a 64-bit VM.

Re: Oracle sues Google over use of Java in Android

#160

Post by jchonphoenix » Fri, Aug 13, 2010, 5:42 AM UTC

The most worrisome factor in this lawsuit is how this will impact java as a language and a platform. If Google loses this lawsuit, java as a language and platform could easily die. Many companies would refuse to use it, just to be on the safe side and avoid litigation from Oracle.

Oracle probably doesn't realize the massive damage it has done to the java platform just by going forward with this suit. Due to the looming threat of Oracle closing the java platform, startups and companies may begin avoiding the java platform in the same way they avoid the Microsoft stack. In fact, I can't see any reason why I WOULDN'T choose the .NET framework over java if both are so closed. At least C# has lambdas...