Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it? • Hacker News Board

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#471

Post by ChuckMcM » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:19 PM UTC

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> This scenario doesn't just happen with [just?] drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion.

I agree with that. It has been very illuminating for me to watch how large groups of people get to consensus. Whether it is something like women wearing pants or if it is ok to smoke cigarettes in a restaurant. My interest has been that sometimes, when one is a part of a larger group, one might want the group to change to a new consensus.

As the article points out, there is a certain amount of collective pain that has to be experienced before you can motivate a critical mass of the group to switch to a new point of view. I wonder if the opioid crisis that is afflicting the US has inflicted that much pain yet.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#472

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:21 PM UTC

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #459

scotty79 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Switzerland. From wiki about gun laws there: In 2016, the defence ministry estimated that 2 million privately owned guns are in circulation, which given a population of 8.3 million corresponds to a gun ownership rate of around 24 guns per 100 residents. This is roughly a quarter of the rate in the United States, and lower than that in the neighbouring countries of Germany, and Austria, but about the double of It…

What? The US has 96 out of 100 people owning guns? (24 X 4) I call bad math somewhere

Some people own multiple guns. This statistics just shows how many guns are in the country vs how many people live there not how many people are armed vs total.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#473

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

pc86 wrote: post #391

scotty79 wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even Switzerland. From wiki about gun laws there: In 2016, the defence ministry estimated that 2 million privately owned guns are in circulation, which given a population of 8.3 million corresponds to a gun ownership rate of around 24 guns per 100 residents. This is roughly a quarter of the rate in the United States, and lower than that in the neighbouring countries of Germany, and Austria, but about the double of It…

Switzerland has a gun homicide rate of 0.50 per 100k population. The US rate is approximately 3.53 per 100k population.[0] So this begs the question, if the per capita gun ownership in Switzerland is 1/4th what it is in the US, why is gun homicide 1/7th? Are Americans just more homicidal than the Swiss? Guns are certainly an issue but not the issue. If you cut American gun ownership by 75% you'd still have more per c…

> So this begs the question, if the per capita gun ownership in Switzerland is 1/4th what it is in the US, why is gun homicide 1/7th

Not every relationship has to be linear. Also there might be other factors. They might be easier to spot if you take away 3/4 of all guns in US.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#474

Post by alpha_squared » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #454

CptFribble wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If puppy bites were traumatizing and frequently fatal, and we had 40k+ deaths per year from puppy bites, then yeah, I'd want to consider some puppy regulations. I understand your point though. I just think that gun regulation is a special case, since due to NRA influence "less guns = less gun deaths" is the only association we have to go on right now, and reducing deaths should be our primary goal.

> If puppy bites were traumatizing and frequently fatal, and we had 40k+ deaths per year from puppy bites, then yeah, I'd want to consider some puppy regulations. That's the point. We have that number of vehicle fatalities. We don't ban cars, we improve safety. Air bags, concrete barriers on divided highways, etc. There are a lot of things we could do to reduce the number of firearms fatalities that we aren't doing.…

Except that viable alternatives to cars are few and far between. Some cities have great public transportation and some have nearly no public transportation. And, as it's likely to turn out, when autonomous driving is mainstream enough, I'd wager quite a bit on the pressure to outlaw human driving in metropolitan regions. Because, as you point out, vehicles are unsafe. They just also happen to be useful without viable alternatives for the time being.

The question I pose is, what are the primary uses for guns and their viable alternatives, if any?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#475

Post by Clubber » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:34 PM UTC

Banthum wrote: post #223

jonathanstrange wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2 cent (classical armchair analysis): It seems to me that some of these discussions are mostly dominated by irrationality. This is particularly recognizable in the US, but also occurs in Europe to a degree that varies from topic to topic and country to country. I believe there are two major factors at play. First, certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong an…

>most problems could be solved by experts Implicit here is that when you say "experts", you mean people who share your terminal values and general way of thinking. Your post makes it seem like you're having trouble stepping out of your value system to consider opposing views. Consider your quote here: "certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong anything concerni…

This was a thoughtful and rational response. If you disagree with it, you shouldn't downvote it.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#476

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:37 PM UTC

exelius wrote: post #406

belorn wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> amok runs with guns This is the problem when discussing political issues like gun control. Gun related crimes has shown correlation with gun ownership laws. Gun accidents is naturally correlated to gun ownership. Mass public shootings however do not when adjusted for the population, but it draws so much political attention so it always get put into the discussion regardless if it match the data. Gun accidents is al…

The big tragedy with the widespread availability of firearms is suicide. Guns are a quick and easy way to end it all, where if you had to search out a tall building for 5 minutes the suicidal urge would subside. Anyone who has dealt with depression can tell you how this works. The suicidal urge doesn't last very long, but guns are waaaaaaay too convenient. Guns are far from the only way to kill yourself, but their wi…

That is no doubt true for some, others will find more drastic methods to end themselves (not all car accidents are accidental and some may hurt bystanders).

In addition I have this philosophy that if you want to interfere with peoples freedom you are responsible for making their life (as judged by that person) worth living - not just preventing them from killing themselves.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#477

Post by mikeash » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

nickik wrote: post #443

mikeash wrote: post #417

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the Russians and Chinese had big civil wars in which the governments you mention eventually came into power. The question of armed resistance isn’t a hypothetical. It was tried and it failed. The notion of gun rights as essential to defending against tyranny is inherently self-defeating. If all it takes to defeat gun owners is passing some laws making them illegal, won’t a tyrant do that before they start with o…

You are just ignoring things you don't want to see. Russian peasants actually did stop the government from taking over in 1920. Lenin was forced to enact the NEP because their policies were literally collapsing. There was no other plan behind the NEP, it was written within a 3 month period. It took a massive effort and practically a civil war by Stalin to collectivize agriculture. While the state was eventually succe…

Why didn't the USSR or these Middle Eastern countries just enact gun control first, then enact these other policies without resistance?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#478

Post by exelius » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:40 PM UTC

LoonyBalloony wrote: post #451

exelius wrote: post #406

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The big tragedy with the widespread availability of firearms is suicide. Guns are a quick and easy way to end it all, where if you had to search out a tall building for 5 minutes the suicidal urge would subside. Anyone who has dealt with depression can tell you how this works. The suicidal urge doesn't last very long, but guns are waaaaaaay too convenient. Guns are far from the only way to kill yourself, but their wi…

How would you structure something like state sanctioned assisted suicide given this "window" of irrationality? We have a waiting period here in the USA when you purchase a firearm from a store. Is the waiting period not long enough in your opinion?

Assisted suicide is a different thing. In those cases, people usually have terminal illnesses anyway so death is inevitable. These people have already accepted death in most cases (I believe this is one of the criteria in places that allow assisted suicide).

This isn't so much about "I want to kill myself; I should go buy a gun" but rather about "I want to kill myself; my dad keeps a gun in his sock drawer". Talk about responsible gun ownership all you want; but if you own a gun for personal defense (as the majority of gun owners do), it's probably not locked up most of the time.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#479

Post by tomjen3 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

rusk wrote: post #189

Tyco wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the US legalizes gay marriage and now they have Trump. Rebuttal?

I think there may be something to this. Though perhaps a better term than "rebuttal" is "backlash". The conservative backlash has long been mooted by social commentators. It's likely a large cohort of Trumps voters were those who were incensed by "central government interfering in local affairs", in particular the case of Kim Davis springs to mind. Never mind that Trump doesn't exactly embody conservatism, I'd imagin…

Really, you are arguing that Harvey Weinstein is a conservative? I mean I rarely write LOL on this page, but I am literally sitting here and doing that. And yes Roy More, but he wasn't the first and he doesn't seem like he will be the last.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#480

Post by scotty79 » Wed, Dec 06, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

Helmet wrote: post #401

scotty79 wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the American founders intended it to cause. Basically, armed revolutions. So ... After all the history that passed since then, after all the civil wars and armed revolutions do we still believe they are good idea? I guess US military thinks so after supporting so many in the middle east. Europe I think has different take on the subject.

Yes, many of us do. The vast majority of US gun-owners are not criminals, and the social problems that gun ownership seems to correlate with can be argued, debated, and squared away with "other" strong correlations, so the debate is certainly not settled. Both the American Revolutionary and Civil War have only hardened my position on the importance of gun ownership. There is a fundamental ideological divide between u…

> I simply don't trust the government and I believe in the right to arm and protect myself at any and all costs.

But you are aware that your government has tanks, drones and vast selection of chemical weapons. Soon they'll have lethal drones small enough to make a person with gun just as harmless as a person without a gun.

People that want guns, I feel, think they are living with their minds in the future where they heroically oppose facist leaning government with their trusty guns. I feel they are in fact living in the glorious past when such thing was possible, not even in the present when goverment has all the power industry manufactured for military since the beginning of industrial revolution. Definitely not in the future when you'll be just labeled domestic terrorist and bombed, gassed, sniped from at least a mile or assasinated by a drone.

Guns today in context of opposing government are just imagination enhacers same way as D&D figurines, just less harmless.