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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

191–200 of 545 posts

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#191

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

My 2 cent (classical armchair analysis):

It seems to me that some of these discussions are mostly dominated by irrationality. This is particularly recognizable in the US, but also occurs in Europe to a degree that varies from topic to topic and country to country.

I believe there are two major factors at play. First, certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong anything concerning human sexuality and some religious views. Second, certain topics have simply been hijacked by politicians, because they need positions that differentiate them from other politicians in a world in which most problems can and need be solved in a technical way. Criminal justice, gun laws, drug laws, healthcare, and climate change are such topics in the US. The discussion of these topics in the US barely makes any sense, because at least certain aspects of the problems related to them have perfectly objective solutions. But then US Democrats and Republicans would essentially defend the same policies and only differ on technical details, and that's not compatible with US election cycles.

A third 'problem' is perhaps a self-imposed and socially imposed limitation of freedom of speech that is particularly strong in developed humanist societies. What e.g. many US gun nuts really want to say is that the freedom of owning a gun outweighs the deaths by gun accidents and amok runs with guns, because freedom is such a high good and they like guns. A politician is not allowed to say that, however, and so the value ordering behind the policy is hidden behind insincere arguments that merely serve as a pretext. This happens everywhere, not just in the US, of course. I don't think this third issue is a problem, as it merely illustrates how evolved the societies are already. The social pressure is there for good reasons and fulfills an important role. (You don't want people starting rational arguments for introducing slavery, because it would lower their production costs. It's good when society endorses values that sanction such arguments even when they are purportedly rational.)

To make this clear, these phenomena occur everywhere in the Western industrialized world. Democratic politicians have run out of political positions, because most problems could be solved by experts and have one or more good technical solution.

(Note: In this post I mean 'technical' in the sense of τέχνη, as in 'technocracy', concerning instrumental means-end rationality.)

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#192

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

If you're going to look elsewhere, that opens up a new can of worms about what to consider or ignore. Take gun laws. Wildly divergent in law. Widely divergent in practice. wildly divergent in results. I agree that the debate often ignored existence proofs, but... It can be hard to take this a whole lot further. The Aussie gun example is used mostly because the narrative fits. The Tassie shooting leading to a buyback.…

> Which to compare to?

Like any-friggin-one! You had to compare to bottom of the barrel to find a country that has the worse situation with guns than US.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#194

Disclaimer: this article was written by a Portuguese and Portuguese society is, on average, biased to Left. So take it with a grain of salt.

and what a horrible place Portugal is as a result :-)

The Portuguese dabbled with the right but about 40 years ago they decided to try it another way.

What you have is remarkable political stability ever since.

Maybe their economy isn't great but I've never met an unhappy or angry Portuguese person (No True Scotsmen notwithstanding of course!). Give me poverty over autocracy any day.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#195
post #2

This is great. But I sometimes wonder if the people who advocate for "x worked for y, so it is best practice and every should do it" appreciate situation complexities and cultural differences?

> appreciate situation complexities and cultural differences?

Laws come from culture but culture and attitudes also comes from laws.

I agree these complexities can't be ignored, but when I argue (perhaps less bluntly) that e.g. "The US should just ban handguns and implement single payer healthcare because it obviously works everywhere else"

Then what I mean is that with stricter gun laws, perhaps the culture and attitudes surrounding guns can be slowly changed. I'm not saying "if you change gun laws you'll see a positive effect on gun deaths within 5 years". I'm arguing that if the US changes gun laws perhaps there will be significant improvement in (just!) a couple of generations.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#196
post #51
post #5

Because drug policy is about associating your political opponents with criminal activity and has nothing to do with preventing drug abuse or addiction.

I do believe you've hit the nail on the head there. It seems one of the big initial reasons for calling cannibis marijuana and criminalization was part of racist legislation against Hispanics. 'Numerous accounts say that "marijuana" came into popular usage in the U.S. in the early 20th century because anti-cannabis factions wanted to underscore the drug's "Mexican-ness."' [1] 1: https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitc…

See also Opium and Chinese people at the turn of the 20th century. US has a long history of drugs policy being tightly integrated with racial politics.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Exclusion_Act

https://www.counterpunch.org/2009/02/06/the-opium-exclusion-...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#197
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right but I don't follow. Do you have a point or did you just really want people to count countries in addition to relevant population numbers?

My point was very clear, I spelled it out in the initial reply: "The world is still extraordinarily backwards when it comes to gay marriage." I then referenced the fact that 70% of European nations don't have legalized gay marriage, as partial supporting evidence for just how backwards most of the world is on this human rights matter. The attempt was then made to rationalize the fact that the majority of European nat…

Your assumption that the number of countries is more important than the proportion of people absolutely doesn't make sense to me.

Is 80% of countries representing 20% population more meaningful 20% countries representing 80% population? (Arbitrary numbers to illustrate my point.) I realise this is quite pedantic but I think measuring "covered population" is more relevant than measuring administrative repartition especially with the Schengen factor.

Of course there's progress to be made either way but can you explain to me in what way my heuristic isn't appropriate to you?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#198

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

All the rights you brought up have a strong moral component. Moral questions can't be answered by looking to other countries with different morals.

Morality can change and is changing, sometimes faster than law. Differences in morality shouldn't be insurmountable obstacle to introducing solutions that work for other generally otherwise similar parts of humanity.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#199

Bullshit. Singapore's radical drug policy is also working extremely well. Why hasn't the world copied it? And to be fair, Singapore's drug policy has been working for a lot longer than Portugal's experiment.

And in russia banning gay marriage didn't just stop gay marriage, there aren't even any gays! 100% success rate obviously.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not misleading in the least It’s possible for something to be both true and misleading - the 70% figure makes the situation sound worse than it really is, IMO.

> the 70% figure makes the situation sound worse than it really is, IMO. The situation is bad, IMO, when the majority of European nations don't allow gay marriage. It's a grotesque travesty.

Seems like getting 30% of countries in the EU (and thus 90% of the population) to legalize it is a great use of resources.

You keep harking on about the 70% number, and maybe that works with a certain demographic of people but it reads as pretty transparent here. 90% of the EU living in countries that respect Gay marriage is a great thing, and is the most concentrated acceptance of gay marriage in the world. But hey, boo Europe!

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