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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

281–290 of 545 posts

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#281

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

>there's a bunch of people that say it's going to cause the corruption of society Well, just look at the US. Political correctness is getting totally out of hand and the same is happening more and more in European countries. Changing traditions causes a lot of entitlement in people who also feel that they should get a special treatment and it seems that there's no end to it. In a democratic society, entitlement from…

"They absolutely need to have it called marriage"

Because that's what it called?

You wrote above that entitlement of minorities is cancer. Isn't limiting marriage based on sex just such a cancer? Most of all, sexual desires and even biological structure isn't binary.

It's not being overly liberal, it's being non-discriminatory.

The key here is 'a binding contract between individuals'.

The 'gayness is evil' trope is not fundamental to even western civilization. It was totally ok to be gay in ancient greece.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, this chart is awesome! It displays that, the worse life is climate-wise, the more drug abuse there is. Especially pronounced in Europe. As you go more inland and more to the north, drug deaths increase. Is it a coincidence? Don't think so. This way, Singapore was never in any danger, it's warm and coastal. And not in sub-Sakhara. Neither was Portugal, come to think of it! Thus it's a stretch to promote their sol…

> It displays that, the worse life is climate-wide, the more drug abuse there is. How did you get that from that chart? It clearly shows South Africa and Australia as having high drug-related deaths and they are as south as you can get. A more accurate observation would be that developed countries with a heavy emphasis on individualism and a lack of communal culture experience the highest drug-related deaths.

Australia does have pretty peculiar climate, doesn't it?

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#283
post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there's a bunch of people that say it's going to cause the corruption of society Well, just look at the US. Political correctness is getting totally out of hand and the same is happening more and more in European countries. Changing traditions causes a lot of entitlement in people who also feel that they should get a special treatment and it seems that there's no end to it. In a democratic society, entitlement from…

>> They absolutely need to have it called marriage Yes, because that's equality. We've tried "separate but equal" before, haven't we? It doesn't work out, and it's used as an excuse for continuing discrimination. This is not entitlement, it's equal treatment.

Gay marriage is like plant-based/fake burgers. Some people will say it is burger, some will say it is not. I'm more inclined to say that it is a "fake marriage", but I have nothing to do with the relationship of any two-person out there.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to look elsewhere, that opens up a new can of worms about what to consider or ignore. Take gun laws. Wildly divergent in law. Widely divergent in practice. wildly divergent in results. I agree that the debate often ignored existence proofs, but... It can be hard to take this a whole lot further. The Aussie gun example is used mostly because the narrative fits. The Tassie shooting leading to a buyback.…

> Which to compare to? Like any-friggin-one! You had to compare to bottom of the barrel to find a country that has the worse situation with guns than US.

I don't live in the US, but I'm skeptical.

There are a lot of places where civilian gun ownership causes problems, gun crime, etc. Some of the places where it does not cause big problems (eg Switzerland) have liberal gun laws and high ownership rates.

There are examples where widespread gun ownership/availability causes exactly the kinds of is "problems" that (according to some) the American founders intended it to cause. Basically, armed revolutions.

There are confusing examples where laws are liberal but ownership is rare. There are opposite examples.

I'm not saying ignore all this. If you want to learn about policy areas, you need to study examples. Just beware the anecdote, attributing cause and effect. Beware within heated political debates, they are known to cause insanity. There is rarely some objective fact that proves your argument, just a collection of facts that may, taken in context, convince you.

Back to drugs policy, Portugal had its own set of cultural norms, problems they were trying to solve, political considerations...

I think Mexico and some other big transit countries need to look at radical liberalisation options. Portugal is a good guide for some of their issues, but overall their situation is very different. They have nasty problems with the wholesale dealing, and the organized crime that goes with it. The street level crime and consumption is not their biggest problem, like Portugal.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#285
Each country needs to have its own thing. In Brazil for example, a measure like this wold not have any impact because we do not have control over our borders.

Take smoking for example. Even if tabacco its alowed, its really expensive to buy legalized cigarrets.

So peoplo just smoke cheap ones, that enter from Paraguai border, with no quality control, and brougth in Brazil by organized crime, or even produced in clandestine factories.

Just legalizing everything here wold not make a diference.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#286

The nastier side of this elephant in the room is that three letters in general, the CIA in particular, really dislike the fact that congress holds their purse strings, so by creating and then dominating a black market, they can generate money off the books with no congressional oversight for those black projects and whatever other unconstitutional fad of the day is. The CIA learned this all the way back in its OSS da…

This is a batshit crazy conspiracy theory comment. The CIA gets plenty of money in the black budget and full congressional approval. The problem isn't CIA accountability, their actions are the actions of the US Govt, but it is rare for the US Govt to suffer repercussions that the American people understand as stemming from the actions of its Govt.

it is rare for the US Govt to suffer repercussions that the American people understand as stemming from the actions of its Govt.

Well, there's the current POTUS...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#287
post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I rarely downvote clear and well-written comments just because I disagree with them, but feel I need to make an exception here. Your "1" is true, but you prefaced it by claiming that it was one of the "major things" the parent was missing. I'm pretty sure he wasn't missing this, as indicated by the sentence "This uptick has been benign because its been limited to Marijuana". Number "2" adds useful distinctions regard…

We should never downvote a comment just because we disagree with it. We should only downvote comments that don't contribute to the discussion. If someone is blatantly wrong, their information could be a common misconception that needs to be addressed and seen by everyone. Comments we disagree with are most often very good additions to the discussion and should be upvoted, even if they're factually inaccurate but ther…

As someone upvoting/downvoting this is an admirable approach, but as a commenter it's not how things work in practice.

Double-hop to the most popular/ancient official endorsement via related discussions: https://hn.algolia.com/?type=all&query=117171

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. And people advocating stricter gun laws can't afford NOT be open about this. "We don't want to take your guns, we want to change attitudes so your grandchildren won't wan't to own guns, and most importantly won't feel the need to own guns". That said - gun show loophole is just that - a loophole. Should be fixed. I think those who want to keep responsible gun ownership also need to realize they have a lot to…

>That said - gun show loophole is just that - a loophole. Should be fixed. The "gun show loophole" is a misnomer. It's not a loophole. It's simply the case in most states in the US for private sales you're allowed to sell your gun to another person without checking with the federal government first, something that's not true of dealers.

Yes. It seems like an obvious bug...

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#289

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>there's a bunch of people that say it's going to cause the corruption of society Well, just look at the US. Political correctness is getting totally out of hand and the same is happening more and more in European countries. Changing traditions causes a lot of entitlement in people who also feel that they should get a special treatment and it seems that there's no end to it. In a democratic society, entitlement from…

Sorry mate, marriage isn't just religious. It's also societal, and Governmental. Many, many people get married outside of church, and for entirely nonreligious reasons - do you speak out against those as well as much as you do marriage between people of the same sex? What about people of a different religion getting married against your religion's rules? By the way - last time I looked into this, marriage predates or…

I couldn't care less about this topic, but isn't what registered partnership is for? You get all the governmental entitlements, right to visit in hospital, inheritance and whatnot, without any religious context. Minus all the nasty potential divorce stuff (unless thats what you're after).

And yes, marriage is historically definitely also religious, at least that's how our society evolved in last 2000 years. During pagan times it were also priests/shamans/whatever that were performing them in one way or another.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#290

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2 cent (classical armchair analysis): It seems to me that some of these discussions are mostly dominated by irrationality. This is particularly recognizable in the US, but also occurs in Europe to a degree that varies from topic to topic and country to country. I believe there are two major factors at play. First, certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong an…

>most problems could be solved by experts Implicit here is that when you say "experts", you mean people who share your terminal values and general way of thinking. Your post makes it seem like you're having trouble stepping out of your value system to consider opposing views. Consider your quote here: "certain topics concern taboos that are still strong even in secularized societies. To these belong anything concerni…

This is not the right place for these kind of discussions, but since your critique is so specific and oddly ad hominem:

Implicit here is that when you say "experts", you mean people who share your terminal values and general way of thinking.

No, I'm really thinking about experts in the technical sense, based on instrumental rationality. Think of panels of domain experts from all political sides and how they can agree on a solution. And yes, they often can agree on a solution - or at least could - if they put their own political agenda to the side for a moment.

Your post makes it seem like you're having trouble stepping out of your value system to consider opposing views.

That's an unfair and unwarrented assumption. I have no problems stepping outside of my value system. I have no troubles understanding e.g. ISIS, social darwinists, very right wing positions, libertarians, etc. and have had discussions with all of these except members of ISIS.

You say, "most problems could be solved by experts". This is basically stating, "If I had absolute power all this could be solved easily."

If there is a meaningful relation between those two statements, you certainly haven't made it explicit. The experts in question can be as conservative as you like, if that appeases your mind - as long as they are able to distinguish between their own values and expert opinion about technical issues.

The reality is that the solutions you imagine wouldn't actually work the way you imagine they would. Because your values aren't ultimately the best ones in any absolute sense.

There are two claims here. The first one is empirical, and since I haven't discussed any particular solutions we can ignore this issue. The second one concerns the role of values. My claim is that the solution of most problems in modern societies has not much to do with values, but mostly will be based on technical issues aka means-end rationality. Not all of them, there is plenty of room for different values and democratic equilibrium between those. You're ignoring my central claim and don't back up your opinion.

The technocratic, power concentrating, "If only I was king!" tyranny impulse needs to be rejected at every turn.

I would consider myself an expert on the interplay between abstract values and technical rationality, as I'm currently leading a research project on this topic, but I'm decidedly not an expert in any of the domains that are relevant for the problems mentioned in my post. So your (personal?) critique seems off-topic. If I would be king that would probably be fairly bad for my country (although perhaps not so much if I'd listen to experts).

When I'm talking about experts I'm literally talking about professors with a high reputation among their colleagues and a proven track record of 40 years of peer reviewed publication in their domain who converge in expert panels to come up with solutions to given problems in some democratically legitimized way and who are not chosen on the basis of their beliefs or political views. Not about random people on social media or electrical engineers who debunk General Relativity or climate science.

Technocracy is tyranny is murder.

I used to think that in less drastic terms, too, but have changed my mind. Modern problems, especially their economic aspects, have become too complex for basic democracy and some strongly representational mechanisms are needed for democracy to work. Technocracy does not imply tyranny as long as proper division of power mechanisms are in place. (Whether the division of power is good enough in country X is another question and certainly debatable for some countries.)

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