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Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

theguardian.com

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Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#201

Post by vlaaad »

arcool wrote: post #98

I've visited Lisbon last week. I had at least 15 different guys offering me heroin, cocaine or LSD in various parts of the city. This never happened to me before but I didn't realise it used to be such a big problem. The point is, if someone wants to get drugs, he/she will just get drugs. I think the best prevention is awareness and I think this policy might have gotten them this far but they seem to need a different…

Can confirm, had a vacation in Portugal this spring and every day in a big cities (Lisbon, Porto) was offered drugs multiple times. Very unpleasant experience.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#202

Post by herbst »

andrenth wrote: post #150
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Take also Switzerland nearly as much guns but barely gun deaths.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#203

Post by scotty79 »

adventured wrote: post #161
lmm wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those are European nations, it's entirely fair to count them as European nations. Proportion of nations is misleading compared to proportion of population.

Not in this case it isn't, due to the size of the population figures. Those European nations that don't allow gay marriage collectively represent several hundred million people. Besides, the majority of nations in the world are small, that doesn't excuse them not legalizing gay marriage. 70% is a very high number of nations in Europe to not have legalized gay marriage. If the US only had legalized gay marriage in 15…

> Those European nations that don't allow gay marriage collectively represent several hundred million people.

Please, be more precise with the numbers. What is several? 2, 3? Because Europe has several hundred million people in total (where several equals about 7).

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#204

Post by taneq »

herbst wrote: post #202
andrenth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

Take also Switzerland nearly as much guns but barely gun deaths.

IIRC (1) Those guns are all bulky rifle-style things which are great when you're defending against an invading army but not so useful when you want to shoot some of your classmates, and (2) There are lots of guns around but access to ammunition is tightly controlled.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#205

Post by herbst »

adventured wrote: post #97
toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

> Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Unfortunately that's an exaggerated claim. The world is still extraordinarily backwards when it comes to gay marriage. 70% of European nations for example don't allow gay marriage. About 90% of the world's population live in a nation where gay marriage is not yet legalized. Only a little over two dozen nations allo…

IMO it would be important to differenciate between 'no legal marriage' and 'no legal partnership'. At best both would be legal but the latter is legal in a lot of places that forbid actual marriage but sometimes runs down the the same benefits (taxes, adoption,...)

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#206

Post by DanBC »

adventured wrote: post #103
r00fus wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm - do you have a cite on your claims about the UK? It's hardly fair to ask for citations when you give none.

edit: I'd like to see the people downvoting my facts , counter how this doesn't amount to a wave or big surge of crime, these numbers are huge increases in a short amount of time. --- Crime has seen a huge increase in Britain and it appears set to keep getting worse. Crime in London has increased dramatically. I'm not going to claim that's due to gun laws, however it is factually correct that crime is surging big tim…

> Crime has seen a huge increase in Britain

No, it hasn't. We've seen better recording, different definitions, better detection, and there have been several operations targetting gangs and street violence and weapons.

Importantly: police recorded crime statistics are not reliable, and so we don't use them in the UK. We use the ONS, which doesn't rely on police recording.

> "Knife crime also increased by 24% with 12,074 recorded offences from 2016 to 2017."

Does this only mean wounding using a knife, or does it include people carrying a knife?

We have strict knife laws in the UK, and there have been several police operations targetting people who carry knives. So the figure you quote includes people who were carrying, but not using, knives.

Here's what ONS says: https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeand...

> This fairly flat trend continues that seen in recent years, with no significant year-on-year change since the survey year ending March 2014. However, the cumulative effect of this downward trend has seen a statistically significant decrease of 25% in the latest survey year compared with the year ending March 2013. The longer-term reductions in violent crime, as shown by the CSEW, are also reflected in the findings of research conducted by the Violence and Society Research Group at Cardiff University. Findings from their annual survey, covering a sample of hospital emergency departments and walk-in centers in England and Wales, show that serious violence-related attendances in 2016 showed a 10% fall compared with 2015 and continue a generally long-term downward trend.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#207

Post by ueushzvzis »

toomanybeersies wrote: post #50

This scenario doesn't just happen with drug policy, but with practically any divisive policy discussion. People will debate something that is done elsewhere, and ignore completely that it's done elsewhere. Gay marriage is a prime example, as it's something that has been legalised in a lot of countries now. Every time a country goes through the process of debating whether to legalise gay marriage, there's a bunch of p…

It's interesting how you do the same thing you get mad about other people doing. You say that less guns equals less gun deaths... well duh. Then you go on to say less handguns equals less deaths and this actually isn't true. As it stands, in the developed world more guns does not equate to more violence or more deaths. Obviously there are more deaths due to guns because people have access to them but the argument that we should ban guns because you don't like them even though they don't cause problems is absurd.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#208

Post by herbst »

rmchugh wrote: post #168

In regards to why it hasn't been copied, I have heard that part of the problem is that the UN officially supports the War on Drugs. European countries are reluctant to break ranks with the UN in this matter, while progress at the UN itself is held up by conservative countries such as Iran.

For what I know the UN is also the reason that countries that culturally include marijuana banned it like India, Cambodia and Thailand.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#209

Post by alkonaut »

ohfunkyeah wrote: post #190
alkonaut wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the whole relationship with "guns" is completely different. We have tons of "guns", but basically no handguns, very few semiautomatics, and absolutely no military style weapons. (Yes - our laws explicitly say that if a gun is a civilian version of a military model, it is banned. It's a good law). Most importantly we have strict storage laws (you can't drive around with a gun in your car every day, you can't h…

Ah! you've hit the nail on the head why the pro gun people are so adamant about not giving an inch to any sort of increased regulations. Most on the pro gun regulation left do not seem to be able to even fathom why closing the gun show loophole is a non-starter or how there can be push-back against banning guns for people on the terrorist watch list. It's because either are effectively turning the burner on very very…

Exactly. And people advocating stricter gun laws can't afford NOT be open about this. "We don't want to take your guns, we want to change attitudes so your grandchildren won't wan't to own guns, and most importantly won't feel the need to own guns". That said - gun show loophole is just that - a loophole. Should be fixed.

I think those who want to keep responsible gun ownership also need to realize they have a lot to win from stricter regulation. With the current culture of short-sighted and reactive legislation, the next ban will be rammed through congress after the next terrible shootout - and that's not the law gun advocates want. I think they are mistaken if they believe they can just use the NRA as a roadblock to keep people buying AR's at gun shows forever. I don't think the political climate a generation from now allows that.

Re: Portugal’s radical drug policy is working. Why hasn’t the world copied it?

#210

Post by ueushzvzis »

alkonaut wrote: post #166
andrenth wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> less handguns = less deaths. This does not follow. Take Brazil for example. 60k homicides per year, and guns are pretty much forbidden. Of course, criminals don’t seem to care.

> This does not follow. If the ban didn't actually lessen the number of handguns, then we don't have the left hand side of the implication! These are two things: ban on handguns -> less handguns less handguns -> fewer deaths Someone argued that the second is true, and you seem to refute it by saying the first isn't. So maybe you aren't talking about the same thing. I'm going to argue that the second thing isn't contr…

Fewer guns does not equal fewer deaths in the developed world. You are doing exactly what you claim to be against. Cherry picking data to suit your narrative.
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