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How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

nytimes.com

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Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#251

Post by Bartweiss »

flexie wrote: post #246
stult wrote: post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you're ignoring massive swathes of infrastructure types. Containerization has led to a complete revamping of US ports during that period. The electrical infrastructure has been massively upgraded, including a huge decrease in coal fired plants. While passenger trains haven't been improved at all, freight train usage has grown rapidly and the already very extensive rail lines have been maintained (conflicting de…

Containers, cell phone networks, the Internet, internet banking etc is infrastructure that has been built and implemented in the rest of the Western World as well, many places to a higher degree or more advanced than in the US, while still maintaining and expanding roads, rails, electrical grid, subways and airports. You are right that the US has lower population density than most of Europe, but Canada doesn't and it…

> the US has lower population density than most of Europe, but Canada doesn't

Population maps of the US [1] and Canada [2] highlight the problem with this argument, though. Canada has low total density, but it's overwhelmingly concentrated around the southern border of the country. The US concentrates population along three coastlines and the Great Lakes, and has more population to support in the low-concentration areas. (For example, Salt Lake City and Las Vegas exist.)

So southern Canada has better-than-US infrastructure at higher-than-US population density, while much of northern Canada has exceedingly limited infrastructure. Outside of Alaska, there's no territory in the US comparably written-off to much of Nunavut and the Northwest Territories.

An example: US highways are nationwide [3], while Canadian highways simply stop [4]. And despite the look of that projection, that's more than a quarter of Canada which is further from a highway than any point in the continental US.

[1] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/US_popul...

[2] http://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-...

[3] https://www.mapsofworld.com/usa/usa-maps/usa-road-map.jpg

[4] https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/policy/NHS_2007.jpg

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#252

Post by solatic »

Spooky23 wrote: post #215
solatic wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because people keep voting for Democratic candidates, no matter their performance as incumbents. Why can't people vote for the candidate of a different party? It doesn't have to be Republican. Why isn't there a "Fix the Subway" single-issue party running candidates that people can vote for? The internal machinations of political party membership are only relevant if voters no longer have a de-facto choice on e…

Because nobody outside of parts of NYC give a shit about the subway. The MTA is a public authority controlled by the governor. Control was kept away from the city due to the city’s fiscal and corruption problems and the machinations of Robert Moses. The subway and busses were ultimately bailed out by the bridges and tunnels, which print money.

Which is why the first step is returning control to the municipal government, no?

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#253

Post by Tyrek »

kodablah wrote: post #228
rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

Bit late here, but I'll give my opinionated answer anyways. The public sector is overall of lower human employee quality than the private sector. A high quality person that wants to get something done without a ton of red tape just doesn't stay in government work for the most part. It's not salary related or even money related, it's accountability related. Fixing that requires firing many entrenched people which will…

You haven't answer the core question, which is: Why can London do this, while NYC cannot? Is there less red tape with accountability in London?

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#254

Post by indoordinosaur »

greggman wrote: post #42

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Tokyo alone. JR, Tokyu, Keikyu, Keio, Odakyu, Eidan, Seibu, Tobu, Toei, Keisei and they seem to be best in class by most measures.

The world's best subway by many measures is the MTR in Hong Kong. Not only is it entirely privately run but it turns a profit which they then take to build more lines. The MTR Corporation is also building London's new 73 mile Crossrail line which opens up next year after being under construction for less than 10 years. 13 Miles of Crossrail is in underground tunnels beneath the densest part of the city. In terms a New Yorker would understand, this project is like if the entire length of the 2nd avenue subway in Manhattan got built along with extensions into the Bronx and Brooklyn in 10 years and under budget.

I can't see NY selling off their subway to a private entity anytime soon but what if a Mayor allowed MTR or another corporation to come in and build a competing line in some part of the city? The amazingly efficient new line might light a fire under the ass of the broader NYC subway to start operating more efficiently. Or as the new line begins to make more profit it could buy NYC lines one by one until it's running most of it. This way the debt bomb of the MTA won't destroy the city because it won't affect all major transit lines.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#255

Post by Spooky23 »

solatic wrote: post #252
Spooky23 wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because nobody outside of parts of NYC give a shit about the subway. The MTA is a public authority controlled by the governor. Control was kept away from the city due to the city’s fiscal and corruption problems and the machinations of Robert Moses. The subway and busses were ultimately bailed out by the bridges and tunnels, which print money.

Which is why the first step is returning control to the municipal government, no?

That ship sailed many years ago.

Public authorities are quasi-government entities controlled by the the bond covenants. You have to line-up the interests of the bond holders with whomever controls the authority and is desiring change.

With something as broad in scope and rich as MTA is such a deep well of political capital, it's incredibly unlikely that anyone would give up any control. It's such a large enterprise there probably isn't one roomful of people who actually understand how the organization works. The current situation was created when the whole NYC transit system was completely insolvent back in the bad old days!

Read "The Power Broker" by Robert Caro. It will open your eyes to why things are the way they are.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#256

Post by zwischenzug »

jchrome wrote: post #225
zwischenzug wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was my experience of the US as well. Not only the state of the roads, but the poor quality of the buildings, and the incredible number of power cuts. It was more reminiscent to me of the third world than the richest country in the world.

You've got to be more specific. I've lived in NYC for almost a decade and I think the power went out 3 times and that's always been due to a hurricane. Power cuts are not something I've had to deal with in any significant manner in anyplace I've lived in the USA (and I've lived all over).

NYC, have also done road trips up and down east and west coast. Never been to the middle. I think I've experienced 3 power cuts in the UK in my entire life.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#257

Post by mlrtime »

crazygringo wrote: post #243
camillomiller wrote: post #122

New York's transport is baffling to me. The lack of a proper subway or special express train option to get quickly to the airports is doubly baffling. I guess the cross-state jurisdiction is one of the issues with Newark, but the AirTrain solution over at JFK is way subpar if compared to other major cities. I've been there twice in a few months and it's simply a disaster. 2.5 hrs by car to get to Newark from Williams…

What are you talking about? From Penn St you take the NJ Transit train to Newark airport, or the LIRR train to Jamaica where you transfer to the AirTrain which brings you to your desired terminal at JFK. LaGuardia doesn't have a train option though. But yeah, taking a car from Newark to Williamburg in the afternoon, I guess you've learned not to do that again. :) NJ Transit is your friend.

From Manhattan, you need to take 3 trains to get to EWR. Subway, Path (NJT), shuttle.

LGA: None

JFK: Subway,AirtRain

Compare this with HKG or LHR, it is pathetic.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#258

Post by bogomipz »

zwischenzug wrote: post #119
flexie wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When is the last time America built any impressive infrastructure? I'd say in the 70s. Most airports, most of the interstate highway network, most subway systems, bridges, tunnels, and dams were built from the 1930s and on to the 1970s. The railroads are even older. And after that; Silence. It's like you didn't even care to maintain it. First time I arrived in America, I was taken aback by how old and run down everyt…

This was my experience of the US as well. Not only the state of the roads, but the poor quality of the buildings, and the incredible number of power cuts. It was more reminiscent to me of the third world than the richest country in the world.

>"This was my experience of the US as well. Not only the state of the roads, but the poor quality of the buildings, and the incredible number of power cuts."

Power cuts? This comment can not be taken seriously. Power cuts in the US are quite exceptional and generally concern circumstance such natural disasters or a severe heat wave. An "incredible number"? Yeah right.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#259

Post by specialp »

gggvvh wrote: post #64
specialp wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NYC subway system started as 3 organizations; only one of which was city owned. I am normally not for privatization but it is probably the only thing that can save the MTA. The NYT points out a lack of funding but really their funding has not dropped tremendously. Politicians do not have the right mindset to run this. Sure Democrats tend to spend more on infrastructure, but then support obscene union contracts. M…

> MTA police make 130k+ Do you actually know a real person who makes that much, or are you just parroting?

Yes I know a real person that works for MTA police but no he didn't make 130k, he made 195k. Go on seethroughny.net and look it up. Try to find MTA police NOT making over 130k. Keep in mind this also includes 20 yr retirement with state tax free pension.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#260

Post by briandear »

lostboys67 wrote: post #162
inferiorhuman wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the same route miles, and are similarly old. Yet NYC’s system costs almost twice as much to run. My two cents: things are more expensive in the United States due to us insisting on being so different in two major ways: 1.) Different safety and road standards. All of Europe, as well as many other countries have completely or partially adopted European r…

From an outsiders view its the extremely devolved nature of the USA that causes a lot of problems. In a more centrally managed country eg France or the UK if there's a major SNAFU like this quite often the tabloids go on rampage and something gets done. Similarly with Racist Sheriffs and problems with local police forces happen the Home Secretary can sack the senior police officer in charge.

France is geographically the size of Texas with 300 million fewer people and a few gazillion fewer square miles.
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