How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways • Hacker News Board

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#41

Post by michaelleslie » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 3:55 AM UTC

blintz wrote: post #27

rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

Uh, mind sharing where you got those numbers? The budget for TfL I see here says a total operational cost of 10.2 billion pounds ( http://content.tfl.gov.uk/transport-for-london-budget-2017-1... )

TfL manages more than just the London Underground. I think the other poster may be using the Tube's share of operating expenses?

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#42

Post by greggman » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 3:57 AM UTC

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Tokyo alone. JR, Tokyu, Keikyu, Keio, Odakyu, Eidan, Seibu, Tobu, Toei, Keisei and they seem to be best in class by most measures.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#43

Post by rhizome » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:02 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #42

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Tokyo alone. JR, Tokyu, Keikyu, Keio, Odakyu, Eidan, Seibu, Tobu, Toei, Keisei and they seem to be best in class by most measures.

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan.

The particular competitive business environment in the US makes it almost impossible.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#44

Post by rtkwe » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:03 AM UTC

jabretti wrote: post #39

MBCook wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting other companies build their own subways? A subway seems like a natural monopoly to me.

You could contract different lines out to different companies. I think Tokyo does this. At the very least, though, you could contract out the running of the whole system to a company for five years a time and let different companies compete for the contract every five years. This isn't a panacea, but it can sometimes help if the main problem is corruption-induced inefficiency as it seems to be for most major cities i…

You'd need some kind of long term planning guidance behind that though because anything beyond the most surface level changes or additions to the system is going to take longer than 5 years and what contracting company is going sink millions of dollars into a system they're only guaranteed to be running for the next couple years?

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#45

Post by Larrikin » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:05 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #42

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Tokyo alone. JR, Tokyu, Keikyu, Keio, Odakyu, Eidan, Seibu, Tobu, Toei, Keisei and they seem to be best in class by most measures.

I believe it works because it was already a good system before being privatized. Most of the cost of building the system and making it work well was done when it was private. Even now the best system in Tokyo, Tokyo Metro, is a joint venture by two different governments

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#46

Post by AznHisoka » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:13 AM UTC

greggman wrote: post #42

I know this isn't a popular idea but any thoughts on why privatizing them is a bad idea? It works in Japan. There are at least 10 train/subway companies in Tokyo alone. JR, Tokyu, Keikyu, Keio, Odakyu, Eidan, Seibu, Tobu, Toei, Keisei and they seem to be best in class by most measures.

On that same idea, I would love to see private buses replace the subway. There is a large van that takes 15-20 people from Queens to Chinatown that runs everyday 12 hours a day and it costs under $5.

Would love to see similar systems for Queens -> Times Square or Brooklyn -> wall street.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#47

Post by rayiner » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:17 AM UTC

blintz wrote: post #27

rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

Uh, mind sharing where you got those numbers? The budget for TfL I see here says a total operational cost of 10.2 billion pounds ( http://content.tfl.gov.uk/transport-for-london-budget-2017-1... )

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-mayors-budget-2017-18.pdf (page 10) versus http://web.mta.info/mta/budget/pdf/MTA%202017%20Adopted%20Bu... (page II-A). I’m just comparing the Underground versus the subway + the Staten Island Railroad.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#48

Post by blahedo » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:19 AM UTC

taurath wrote: post #35

rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

I honestly don't either. It feels like everything we do costs 10x anywhere else for 10x the time. You would think the cost of building a few light rail lines in a city like Seattle would cost less than a cross-town subway in Japan. In my short life I've never seen America really build anything impressive in transportation - BART, the NYC Subway, the interstate highway system, and most of our airports seem like they w…

The DC metro was mostly built in the 80s and 90s (early construction started in the 70s), and the Portland MAX started construction in the mid 80s and has been expanding regularly since then. Atlanta's MARTA rail network was built mostly in the 80s. There are examples if you look for them, though I'm not sure what all counts as "impressive" here.

Outside of city subways: Amtrak's Acela service (which is what passes for "high-speed" though I understand this is weak in comparison to Europe and Japan) was built and established in the early 2000s, and boosted Amtrak's share of the air/train travel on the NYC-DC corridor from 37% to 75%. Boston's Big Dig project, which for all its faults was certainly impressive, spanned a couple decades and was finished around 2004 or so.

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#49

Post by AngusH » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:19 AM UTC

blintz wrote: post #27

rayiner wrote: post #21

I don’t understand why American governments are so bad at providing public services. Money often isn’t it. The NY subway has an operating budget of $8 billion for about 1.7 billion riders per year ($4.7 per rider per year). The London Tube has an operating budget of (2.2 billion pounds—$3.5 billion pre-Brexit) for 1.4 billion riders ($2.5 per rider). The systems are in extremely similar cities, are almost exactly the…

Uh, mind sharing where you got those numbers? The budget for TfL I see here says a total operational cost of 10.2 billion pounds ( http://content.tfl.gov.uk/transport-for-london-budget-2017-1... )

For reference the broken down numbers for the underground alone are on page 25 of that document. (page 13 or so in the pdf)

Re: How Politics and Bad Decisions Starved New York’s Subways

#50

Post by cuckmaster » Mon, Nov 20, 2017, 4:19 AM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #36

zzzzzzzza wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

wait you paid 3 dollars for an hour of uber? How does that make sense? The minimum wage is way more than that.

Maybe he's saying that he drove himself for $3 in gas (while conveniently ignoring all the other costs of car ownership, not to mention the massive externalities).

But since the government subsidizes both the $3 ain't so bad