Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 178 posts

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#121

Post by jfoutz »

simonsarris wrote: post #21

I think the second order effects here are under appreciated. Ponder, which of these is overstepping? * Telling someone they look good today * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Inviting someone for a drink after work * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more * Inviting a co…

> For a man talking to a man, all of the above are just plain fine.

I think i could make at least 3 of those really awkward. I don't think it would be difficult to find someone to really nail all seven, hard. I don't think you've had that kind of uncomfortable attention rammed down your throat. Sometimes those penetrating insights are hard to face. You just haven't been under someone with so much power.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#122

Post by colanderman »

sliverstorm wrote: post #103
_m8fo wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

no, it hasn't been clarified. what are these mysterious things a man can say to other men he does not know that he couldn't say to a woman he doesn't know?

mostly involving extracurricular activity and people you know somewhat rather than total strangers. asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you and another male coworker, just not quite the same. invite on a group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room. join me for dinner to talk about project/feature. a packed car trip to somewhere in a very small vehicle. le…

> asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you

Does she like whiskey? Have you talked about this before? If a co-worker invited me (who never talks about alcohol) to his house to come "taste whiskey" I'd be confused and try to figure out the pretext. Were I a woman, the obvious pretext is "sexual advance".

> group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room

That's weird man, regardless of whether it's co-ed.

> join me for dinner to talk about project/feature.

Again, weird; I'm looking for the pretext. Unless we're already good friends, in which case this is a non-issue even if I'm female.

> let's go visit the hot springs

Where the hell do you work?? These are not things you do with co-workers, these are things you do with close friends.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#123

Post by [deleted] »

noobermin wrote: post #116
Mz wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have found that it is possible to entirely avoid gray areas by abiding by very strict standards that avoid any possible misinterpretation. I have also found this makes me seem cold, rejecting and unapproachable. Establishing trust is a kind of bonding process. It involves taking risks. If you put nothing on the line, you don't bond. If you are never warm, trust is unlikely. If you are ever warm, confusion about int…

I mean, a lot of it can just be people are different and will find they need to do different things in order to interact with others successfully without problems, so if you need rules, I suppose that's just you. An aside, but regarding your "coldness." I don't think that's a problem. Most people I think even when they are "warm" aren't necessarily naive and too willing to trust although society stereotypes them that…

[deleted]

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#124

Post by noobermin »

_m8fo wrote: post #101
noobermin wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On certain things, you cannot treat people the same without considering their needs. A person in a wheelchair cannot climb a stair case. You definitely want to treat people the same as much as possible.

sure, but we're not talking about someone with a disability. we're talking about men and women. why would you even make that comparison, given the context? by the way, people with disabilities generally want to be treated equally, once accessibility has been reached.

Women are different due to cultural norms and have also different needs; for just one example, while both parents of new born kids might need paternity or maternity leave, women who give birth face a much more physiologically taxing experience than men who do not. You cannot merely treat everyone the same with a "for all" universal quantifier next to it because you'll end up discriminating against someone.

This isn't even a group or women or whatever issue, this is human interaction 101. Some people don't drink, some people don't smoke, some people don't like sex, some do. You can't accommodate everyone, but you should do what you can and are comfortable with and be sensitive for those you can't. Then you can treat people the same after that. So I don't think you disagree, it's just we might be defining the word "equally" differently.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#125

Post by [deleted] »

orblivion wrote: post #108
astura wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sad? No! It's always been impolite to comment on people's appearance unless you are close with them. When you make comments about the appearance of your coworker there's so much that has the potential to be misunderstood and it's just so totally unnecessary. This isn't new either, Miss Manners has been advocating it since the 70s.

I can't say "hey nice haircut"? Just because there may be an ounce of sexual undertone? There's a line not to be crossed, but Jesus you're talking about neutering our humanity here.

[deleted]

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#126

Post by noobermin »

astura wrote: post #94
orblivion wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. That it's come to this is really sad.

Sad? No! It's always been impolite to comment on people's appearance unless you are close with them. When you make comments about the appearance of your coworker there's so much that has the potential to be misunderstood and it's just so totally unnecessary. This isn't new either, Miss Manners has been advocating it since the 70s.

To be fair, I think that only applies to if you have something negative to say.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#127

Post by noobermin »

ThomPete wrote: post #117
noobermin wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alright, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that's just how it is for you. It does depends on the context, but when you interact with others outside your circle (or hire outside your circle), you have to be somewhat sensitive to their perceptions. I think that is just "human interaction 101."

of course but the problem obviously arises when someone new come on board. do they adapt to the culture or walk away or do the culture respect the subjective opinions of the newcommer. in my world that should be up to the culture as long as nothing illegal is going on.

It's a difficult situation, I think. I think a linear combination is best, but which axis the vector points along, it might be hard to say.

I think the only thing I'd want is to not have a newcomer feel shut out because they can't adapt.

You've actually given me something to think about. Cheers.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#128

Post by fencepost »

xupybd wrote: post #16
adriand wrote: post #10

I've been an owner of a company for years now and I've always followed a few simple rules with the women who work for our company: - I never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. - I refer to them as "women", never as "ladies" or "girls" or other nonsense. - No touching (hugs, etc.) with the exception of handshakes and high fives. - I don't engage in, or tolerate, any sexist, sex…

>If you have to overcompensate like Pence, it's still a hell of a lot better than the alternative. I kind of think Pence is being smart. Conservative politicians can't survive that sort of scandal so being really careful can't hurt. Also I think there is some wisdom in not always trusting yourself not to cross the line, why not just keep your self as far away from the line as you can reasonably maintain. Kinda like u…

>> [overcompensating]

> I kind of think Pence is being smart.

The problem is that Pence takes it so far as to be creepy. My feeling on him is that in a different time (and not as far back as you'd expect) he'd be in the "Ankle? To the stocks with her!" crowd - and god help you if someone accused you of being a witch.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#129

Post by jacalata »

flukus wrote: post #83
_m8fo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you treat everyone the same?

Because half the population (or at least a considerable portion of that half) get's offended if I treat them the same as I would men.

I am skeptical that there is anything you could do that would never offend any men but would offend a significant percentage of women. Even more skeptical if we're restricting the scene to professional interactions.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#130

Post by [deleted] »

sp527 wrote: post #99

This has become almost cartoonish. The people being accused of sexual harassment did overtly and obviously abusive things. That doesn’t call for a referendum on the entire scope of male-female interactions. If you have to wonder whether you’re a sexual harasser and aren’t stupid or deliberately oblivious, then the answer is you are not one. You may still be somewhere on the misogyny spectrum. You may even make women…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN