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Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

nytimes.com

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Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#101

Post by _m8fo »

noobermin wrote: post #95
_m8fo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you treat everyone the same?

On certain things, you cannot treat people the same without considering their needs. A person in a wheelchair cannot climb a stair case. You definitely want to treat people the same as much as possible.

sure, but we're not talking about someone with a disability. we're talking about men and women. why would you even make that comparison, given the context?

by the way, people with disabilities generally want to be treated equally, once accessibility has been reached.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#102

Post by mirimir »

flukus wrote: post #83
_m8fo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't you treat everyone the same?

Because half the population (or at least a considerable portion of that half) get's offended if I treat them the same as I would men.

For sure. My wife swears like a sailor now, but she still gets offended sometimes by my repertoire ;) And we've been married for decades. But there's a certain blend of formality and good cheer that's part of professional behavior.

Edit: My point is that I'd never talk that way in a professional context. Or even on HN.

Edit: Also that my wife has picked up bad habits from me.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#103

Post by sliverstorm »

_m8fo wrote: post #79
sliverstorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as has been said many times by now in this thread- there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do. or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong? "so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.

no, it hasn't been clarified. what are these mysterious things a man can say to other men he does not know that he couldn't say to a woman he doesn't know?

mostly involving extracurricular activity and people you know somewhat rather than total strangers. asking a woman if she wants to come over to your house tonight to taste whiskey with you and another male coworker, just not quite the same. invite on a group ski trip with a reservation for only one hotel room. join me for dinner to talk about project/feature. a packed car trip to somewhere in a very small vehicle. let's go visit the hot springs (which, it's common knowledge, are clothing-optional at night).

taking that last one further, i was once told it was ok that i had forgot my swimsuit, for that reason. man to man, i thought nothing of it, but by god could you imagine saying that to your female coworker?

none of these things are crimes, but there's zero chance anyone would ever read anything into it or that anything would happen if it's a bunch of guys, while there's clear places a woman might hear a different meaning or have reservations, hence the newfound question marks.

anyway, i'm not the canonical source on this, just attempting to think of my own experiences working in a boy's club.

and of course if a man is truly close & open friends, not just work acquaintances, with a woman, pretty much everything said here may go out the window.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#104

Post by sliverstorm »

neom wrote: post #81
sliverstorm wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

as has been said many times by now in this thread- there are many things a man can say to another man that he can't say to a woman, and things he can't do. or even if there is something he can say, he might not be totally confident he can say it. who among us has never said something that came out wrong? "so just never say or do any of those things ever" is a poor solution.

That's not entirely true, and a bit of a fallacy of masculinity. I assure you, there are many men who don't care for much of the things other men say, and just because I'm a man doesn't give you permission to talk to me particularly differently.

i'm not really talking about "locker room talk". read my other comment for some basic examples.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#105

Post by hasenj »

debacle wrote: post #58
hasenj wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damned no matter what you do?

Just treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!

Yea, that's what you say. Someone else will have different standards of what counts as a compliment or unwelcome advances, etc.

I personally just never engage with work colleagues in those terms. Keep everything formal and polite.

If you think I'm cold, well, too bad. But you can't accuse me of any kind of harassment.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#106

Post by tree_of_item »

colanderman wrote: post #89
debacle wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just treat people nice. There's a way to compliment a woman's dress or hair without sounding like a creep. In fact, women who are friends do it all the time. It's part of how women form platonic relationships. One of the nicest compliments you can pay someone is noticing a conscious change that they've made in themselves!

Right? I'm one of the most socially awkward people I know but even I can pull off a "hey, nice new frames!", "cool T-shirt!", or "nice new haircut!" to a female co-worker without sounding like a creep. Claiming that's impossible to do "safely" – especially from someone in a managerial role, who should know how to talk to people – is just lazy CYA behavior. EDIT: Side note – one of the clearest (subconscious) dividing…

Perhaps you could reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15692577 and explain how this is done?

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#107

Post by rhelmer »

ThomPete wrote: post #90
rhelmer wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Catcalling just seems like a bad example... I can't think of a situation where that seems appropriate? I'm really not seeing why any of this belongs in the workplace. Why not bars, or if you're not the nightlife type, dating sites?

I can think of plenty where it's appropriate. Again it's about context.

Well the context in this case (per the article) is the workplace, and the article appears to focus on the US, to disambiguate the laws and norms expected.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#108

Post by orblivion »

astura wrote: post #94
orblivion wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> never, ever comment on their appearance, including new hairstyles, clothing, etc. That it's come to this is really sad.

Sad? No! It's always been impolite to comment on people's appearance unless you are close with them. When you make comments about the appearance of your coworker there's so much that has the potential to be misunderstood and it's just so totally unnecessary. This isn't new either, Miss Manners has been advocating it since the 70s.

I can't say "hey nice haircut"? Just because there may be an ounce of sexual undertone? There's a line not to be crossed, but Jesus you're talking about neutering our humanity here.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#109

Post by gizmo686 »

_m8fo wrote: post #93
gizmo686 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is not with complete strangers, but with people who you have some level of a relationship with. For example, if I will invite a male co-worker out to lunch without a second thought, but I would not do so with a female co-worker unless someone else was coming along. This very clearly hurts my female co-workers, but I care more about covering my own ass then gender equality. I also would not think twice about…

your example is bizarre. of course you have to use complete strangers as an example, because we're attempting to determine if the gender is the variable of concern, not your relationship. if you were friends with this female co-worker 4 times as long as the male co-worker I'm sure you wouldn't have any qualms. why wouldn't you invite your female colleague to lunch? what do you think is going to happen? good lord.

>What do you think is going to happen?

Most likely, nothing. Less likely, it would be received as some level of "creepy", either at the moment or at some future HR review. It simply does not feel worth it to take the chance. I suspect that most of the feeling is the result of anti sexual harassment propaganda rather than actual consequences, but that is not a minefield I feel like dealing with on a daily basis.

>of course you have to use complete strangers as an example, because we're attempting to determine if the gender is the variable of concern, not your relationship.

Gender could be a variable of concern in established relationships. For example, if it takes women on average 4 times as long to reach a given level of interaction with me compare to men, then gender is clearly a variable. Empirically, I can tell you that the gender of my co-workers is highly predictive of how personal I get with them.

Re: Men at Work Wonder If They Overstepped with Women, Too

#110

Post by comstock »

simonsarris wrote: post #75
comstock wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t consider these things just plain fine. I’d consider many of them somewhat offensive even if they came from a friend, regardless of gender: * Telling someone a very funny, yet lewd joke that you just thought up * Telling someone they should dress better * Telling someone they are too uptight * Telling someone that, if they were nicer, they might get ahead more I guess people are different...

I'm trying to leave "personally" out of this on purpose. Don't you see the problem, regardless of your personal feelings? People differ about what's fine in the list. But when a male doesn't think its fine, its still more-or-less fine by comparison. The negative reactions of men to other men receiving those comments would not at all resemble [some of] the negative reactions of women receiving them. The downside is fa…

I think it’s absolutely conceivable that a male manager might fire a male employee for making a lewd joke.

The other things? From both men and women I would guess the appropriate response is to inform the commenter that their remark is no ok. If it keeps happening you might want to get rid of them, sounds like a bad workplace environment.

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