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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#741

Post by jernfrost »

alehul wrote: post #676
Grustaf wrote: post #634

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Catalonia, more so than Estonia, has a distinct culture What makes you say that? Estonia is a protestant country of Finnic people speaking a Finno-Ugric language that is completely unrelated to even the Indo-European language family. Soviet, like Russia now, was a Eurasian empire mostly made up of Orthodox Slavs speaking a Slavic language. These are quite distinct cultures, at least as different as Germany and Franc…

You're right that Estonia was not the best possible example in terms of lingual similarity, and Lithuania would've served the purpose better in terms of recent history. Sweden and Denmark are a great choice, but I think the Swedish War of Liberation is too far back in history to be acknowledged as a relevant example today. I was mostly attempting to point out our inconsistencies in supporting the independence of so m…

Perhaps I am biased being Norwegian, but the obvious countries to compare to here is Sweden and Norway. Norway was until fairly recently (1905) part of Sweden, and like Catalonia we had great levels of autonomy, our own parliament and democratic elections. Like Catalonia we also are culturally very similar to Sweden. Certainly more so than Denmark.

Like Catalonia we had not been an independent country for a very long time. In fact Norway existed as an independent country so far back that Spain didn't even exist as a country then.

Like Catalonia, when Spain gained its independence it had not previously existed as an independent country. The same could be said about the Netherlands. Netherlands like Catalonia was also once part of Spain. Until it declared independence from Spain, it had never existed as a country.

In fact this has been a problem for dutch identity, in that there really is no clear way to identify dutch national identity before independence from Spain.

Which I thing brings me to the point, that ultimately it is about what people feel themselves.

Despite not having been independent for almost 600 years, Norwegians still felt like they were a different people than Swedes or Danes.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#742

Post by mpermar »

CaptSpify wrote: post #597
mpermar wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you can't do is to reward people voting on a poll that the majority does not want to vote in.

Why not? If the majority doesn't want to make their opinion known, that's fine, but I don't see how they can blame others for continuing on despite their silence.

Because then every minority can vote whatever they want. A few of your neighbours can vote to kick your family out of your house. A few rival supporters can vote to kick your team out of your favourite league. Some students can vote to kick your kids out of college because they do not like them. If we let anyone to invent polls and votes that affect the majority of people then nonsense happens.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#743

Post by adekok »

tomp wrote: post #146
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

No, he's just saying that parent's excuse that "no" voters didn't show up because of fear of violence is invalid, because the only perpetrators of violence were Spanish police (i.e. the pro-"no" force), so if anything "yes" voters were discouraged.

The people who thought the referendum was illegal and didn't matter, didn't show up. In part because of fears of violence from police (shall we say) "enthusiastically" enforcing the law.

The people who wanted the referendum to go through were motivated to show up despite the violence. Because they believed in their cause.

So no, the "yes" voters were likely not discouraged from showing up. Or, the "soft" yes votes were discouraged.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#745

Post by kristiandupont »

jernfrost wrote: post #740
VeejayRampay wrote: post #662

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's just take it a step further. Now East Catalonia thinks they'd be better off as an independent state, and wait now Barcelona wants to be its own city state. I understand the thirst for democracy, but there's a reason we're collectively moving towards integration as Europeans, it does make us stronger in the long run and helps bring peace and stability.

And I'd say that would be fine. Your thinking betrays a certain authoritarian paternalistic streak. That somehow the plebs can't grasp what is best for them. It ought to be assumed that people would not automatically assume ever bigger divisions is an improvement. You have to put faith in people's ability to think for themselves. In most of these independence referendums people DO end up staying. People are not stupi…

Leaving Spain (and thus, the EU) is going to have severe consequences financially and in other ways (families that have someone working in another EU country who would suddenly not be a Schengen member etc.).

Yes, the UK followed this democratic way and voted themselves out of the EU and you could argue that Catalonia should be able to do the same but as with Brexit, it would mean that close to half of the population is going to see their life affected in a way that they never wanted.

The argument that the people should be allowed to decide i these matters is often made and it's easy to view the opposite stance as condescending but there are many philosophical and pragmatic arguments against direct democracy and I think these are situations where they apply.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#747

Post by nubol »

nubol wrote: post #67
thetxef wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. that is just false. They did not show up because they did not want the referedum to take place.

Yeah, maybe because it was not legal, anyway, it does not show in an accurate way the opinion of the Catalans.

Funny that I got downvoted for saying that, I will say it again, it was not legal, and therefore because the lack of participation is not representing the opinion of the Catalans.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#748

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

tomjen3 wrote: post #558
simias wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets. Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.

Is it genocide to shoot at protesters if they are primarily a particular ethnicity? Because that may be what Spain has to do to force Catalonia to comply.

I think they'll be shooting less because they're a particular ethnicity and more because they're rioting, protesting the decision, or directly fighting the government. Ethnic differences would be coincidental in such an occurrence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#749

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

ryuker16 wrote: post #499
microcolonel wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other asymmetric warfare situations, supersonic jets have done very little to end a conflict. No sane person would ever want to start a war with a civil militia containing nearly all able-bodied men in a region; it's bad enough when just a couple per cent are against you, all with small arms. Imagine how bad it would be with 20%, 30%, 40% of the able-bodied against you.

But most of those small arms suck. In Vietnam and Afghanistan they had weapons being sent to them including stuff like artillery and mortars. A bunch of militia with store bought guns(many pistols or hunting rifles) doesn't really compare to guys supplied with full automatics and RPGs.

It takes very little for normal people to produce explosives and IEDs.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#750

Post by TheAdamAndChe »

liberte82 wrote: post #287
flexie wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…

I agree, civil war is very unlikely. I think we're in for a period of unrest much more like the Irish Troubles, with organized acts of political terrorism.

Isn't political terrorism just another word for asymmetric warfare? How wouldn't that be a civil war?
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