From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…
Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
281–290 of 785 posts
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#282Earlier quoted context omitted.
Not true. People came to the polls wearing Spanish flags. No violence. The Catalan process has thankfully been extremely peaceful. People did not vote in the referendum because it was not officially recognized as such. Because the Spanish government refused to agree on the terms. The referendum was a sad exercise of democracy, in which the voice of lots of Catalans was not heard. But it was the only one that could be…
I guess the point is that given that the spanish government considered the referendum illegal, people not in favor of independence would probably not have wanted to caution it by participating. Clearly in these conditions the results can't be trusted. It's more like "90% of the people who thought the referendum was legitimate are in favor of independence". There's obviously a big selection bias. As for the question o…
That's a strange argument. Should the other member states of the EU have gotten to vote on Brexit?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#283Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#284Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence" - in your opinion perhaps. Many others have a different opinion. But this is something that could easily be settled by ... a vote on independence.
Last election had a majority of votes to parties that didn't proposed independence, that's a hard fact, not an opinion. And as you will soon learn, there is no need to settle that question, it was settled long ago.
I don't think that is exactly decisive for either side, but to claim it as a win for the "no" camp is a little bit disingenuous.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#285Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, if you were the Catalonian government and you wanted to push for independence, what would you do instead? Or are you saying that pushing for independence itself is a screw up?
As usual people are missing part of the story. Both side screw up. BOTH. E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your neighbors for decades can be a good sta…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#286From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#287From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…
I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#288Earlier quoted context omitted.
> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…
Do you have any proof about indoctrination of children beyond mere anecdote, hearsay, or accusations from unionist organizations? The indoctrination argument is an argument that just got popular recently for usage by unionists, but was almost unheard before. As far as I know, it hasn’t been validated by court on any occasion.
Or maybe the many accusations of events like this one http://baluartedigital.opennemas.com/articulo/separatismo/vi...
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#289Earlier quoted context omitted.
Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.
The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#290Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
As of 1775, no English colony in North America had ever been independent. It had always been subject to the king of England. This was not sufficient reason for the colonists to remain loyal subjects of the crown.
The colonists took it upon their own initiative to secede from England. Any votes that may have been cast were taken mainly among those who wanted independence, and those who wished to remain loyal were likely not even informed that a vote was taking place. It isn't really there for a democratic mandate, but a means of gauging support among the uncommitted for any war that may follow.
In the ideal case, the result of the vote is strong enough that the war is a foregone conclusion, and it never actually happens. The WOPR concludes that the only way to win is not to play. Or it may be a means of the parent entity tactfully trying to shed a non-performant territory. Or it may be because people are genuinely trying to decide a course of action based on the will of the people. The U.S. territory of Puerto Rico, for instance, may one day hold a referendum to determine whether the island should apply for statehood, petition for independence, or remain in the status quo. It is likely that the remainder of the U.S. would honor the results of any such vote, though probably with the U.S. retaining sovereignty over any territory the military already directly controls.
It is not necessary for any national or international body to recognize the vote. It is purely for the secessionists, to determine if they could win a war if the parent entity invades after the split.
The secessionists don't have to pay any attention whatsoever to other regions with an equally strong or stronger case for secession.
If you are voting to secede, you don't care whether or not the vote is legal or binding. The explicit wording is regarding secession, but implicitly it is about whether people will take up arms for Catalonia, or at least not take up arms for Spain, if there is a war for independence. The percentages don't really matter, only the raw numbers. If 10000 people vote "yes", you know that there are potentially 10000 armed rebels out there, waiting for the signal to join the fight.
I think Spain is handling this in the worst possible manner, diplomatically. Viral videos of people getting beaten by police is only going to increase the number of people willing to fight to make it stop.