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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#61

Post by yeukhon »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

Why would the Spanish government let the Catalans declare independence regardless of the outcome of the illegal referendum?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#62

Post by psadri »

simion314 wrote: post #46
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Everyone keeps talking about the constitution as if it is set in stone. The constitution was made by people, 50 years ago. It can and should be changed to reflect new realities.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#63

Post by tom_mellior »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31
beojan wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't use that excuse when it's the side supporting "no" perpetrating the violence.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

> the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law

Beating up people for trying to put a piece of paper into a box is not "the rule of law".

The rule of law would have been to let people put pieces of paper into boxes, then go out the next day and arrest the organizers of the referendum.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#64

Post by jannes »

The senate in Madrid just voted to trigger article 155 of the Spanish constitution, which allows them to cancel the regional government.

That should stop tax money flowing...

I could only find an article in Spanish as it only happened a few minutes ago: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=&sl=es&tl=en&u=http...

Edit: Looks like the BBC has updated the article to include this now.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#65

Post by pizza234 »

empath75 wrote: post #16
adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

I don't have a strong position one way or the other, but it seems to me that the Spanish government completely botched their response to the referendum by trying to get by with a raw power play which basically guaranteed that the referendum would pass (which by no means was guaranteed had the referendum but allowed to proceed without interference), leaving Spain with no choice but to use force. Now Catalonia has call…

> Let them go, keep them in the EU

They won't be automatically in the EU, and actually, this is going to be a serious political problem - the EU will have (rightfully) troubles accepting a country with strong separatist sentiments.

On top of this, it will have very serious financial problems - Catalonia economy may look good in a Spanish context, but compared to the European countries in the mid/upper "class", it's very poor, and will be worse once it will have to pay the administrative bills for setting itself up as a country.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#66

Post by agumonkey »

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

True, Catalans factual issues are understandable, but this was an improper way to change things. It's nicer than fixed elections with fake votes, but it's almost as biased.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#67

Post by nubol »

thetxef wrote: post #9
adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

> people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. that is just false. They did not show up because they did not want the referedum to take place.

Yeah, maybe because it was not legal, anyway, it does not show in an accurate way the opinion of the Catalans.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#68

Post by jcadam »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #41
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.

If the alternative is direct military intervention by the other member states, I suspect they're prepared to tolerate quite a bit.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#69

Post by pbhjpbhj »

ryanlol wrote: post #37
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

Democratic will is the will of voters, by not voting you choose to let others decide for you. You can’t reward people for not voting, that’s just utterly insane.

My mistake, I thought demos was the people not the "voters". /s

Not voting in an illegal ballot seems reasonable. The rule of law is a cornerstone of democracy as too are free and fair elections.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#70

Post by alvatar »

MatthewWilkes wrote: post #47
jvzr wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in Barcelona the three days before Spain's ultimatum on October 19. And fwiw I saw hundreds of Catalonian flags hanging from the balconies, and very few (less than 5) Spanish flags. It doesn't mean much, but at least in Barcelona it seems that citizens are concerned.

That's interesting, I was also in Barcelona last week and I saw slightly more Spanish flags than Catalan. I think the real problem is that Spain have consistently blocked a peaceful referendum. I don't believe Catalonia would vote to leave in a fair vote, but I do feel that the repressive actions of the Kingdom of Spain on this matter are the kind of thing that could justify declaring independence unilaterally.

Again, what is the repression of the Kingdom of Spain exactly? Not allowing the referendum? It was ruled illegal by the high courts. Catalonia should push for a change of that, but not blame the government for applying the Constitution.
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