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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#621

Post by microcolonel »

coryfklein wrote: post #599
microcolonel wrote: post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consider also that there are arms manufacturers and state militias all across the country. If it's California, they have (some of) Northrop Grumman. If it's Virginia, they have General Dynamics Mission Systems.

Both of which can get magically disappeared in hours with the superior weaponry and numbers in the hands of the federal government.

Yeah, it'll work out really well when the U.S. military uses their General Dynamics Mission Systems radios to order their General Dynamics Mission Systems drones to fire General Dynamics missiles at General Dynamics. While their General Dynamics M1 Abrams tanks and General Dynamics Stryker AFVs roll through the streets to kill the civilians.

This is not the way things would play out. The federal government would twiddle their thumbs and say that they are very cross with the separatists, and we'd all get on with our lives.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#622

Post by dragonwriter »

ben_w wrote: post #422
narag wrote: post #357

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you serious?

Yes, I am. While people displaced by a colony are obviously disadvantaged, the colony itself and its residents are not.

> While people displaced by a colony are obviously disadvantaged, the colony itself and its residents are not.

I think you may be confusing the pattern of colonization in British North America with colonization more generally; the pattern elsewhere was more often of subordination to an imported elite rather than displacement.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#623

Post by tertius »

narag wrote: post #591
tertius wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough I think that's why rhetoric isn't enough to actually stop the half that want a revolution. What number is high enough in your estimation then?

To start a revolution and provoke a blood bath? Is "none" good enough for you?

So "none" is enough to start a revolution? Or to secede?

That doesn't make sense.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#624

Post by icebraining »

ctdonath wrote: post #519
icebraining wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US did have a civil war during those couple of centuries, though.

Largely because "50.1%", living hundreds or thousands of miles away, took to bossing the "49.9%" secessionists around. It also involved imposing a massive moral change with enormous economic consequences, which people understandably had some objections to. Ending slavery as a primary institution was costly.

Right, but that's essentially saying the US Constitution is great as long as it's not really put to the test. The pro-independence Catalonians also say that the central Government has been bossing them around.

Besides, maybe the Civil War was inevitable, but the war itself caused a major shift of in the balances of power. The Constitution may not have changes, but the country did, and it's dubious that you can consider the pre and after periods as a continuous link.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#625

Post by smcl »

vixen99 wrote: post #453
smcl wrote: post #262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Scottish Government might support them - it's not much (we're only a semi-autonomous nation within the UK, so not exactly an international heavyweight) but they're not completely alone

This is what they did actually say: 'Commenting on referendum on Catalonia’s constitutional position, Scottish Cabinet Secretary said: “The decision over Catalonia’s future direction is a matter for the people who live there, and the Catalan and Spanish Governments are perfectly entitled to take positions for and against independence. “However, all peoples have the right to self-determination and to choose the form o…

This is more in line with what I expected

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#626

Post by smcl »

_Tev wrote: post #349
smcl wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an excellent point I've struggled to put across. Furthermore people act like laws are set in stone and are always objectively Good. "It is illegal" is in some cases not a good argument against something.

Laws are usually there for a reason. You could apply your whole argument to public opinion and referendums - public will change mind a lot, why make such drastic moves based on it?

Usually laws are there for a reason. Then sometimes we have to repeal "slavery is OK" or "black people count for 3/5 of white people" or "women can't vote" laws. Because they're obviously wrong.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#627

Post by pvaldes »

panglott wrote: post #503
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offere…

Some people does not understand that the independence referendum is a MacGuffin here. Not the main goal.

Is just a symbol of power. Another step to bend the arm of the central government again, not the end of the agenda. Catalonian people had another referendum in 2016, plus one free elections in between. Is insane to keep asking for a referendum each 6 months until independence is forced

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#628

Post by [deleted] »

_Tev wrote: post #484
maksimum wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except in this case it was If you want to be independent you go vote. If you do not care, or are afraid of getting hammered by Spanish police you stay home. In that case 43% turnout is pretty impressive.

Read the GP. What oppression was there in 2014?

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#629

Post by Grustaf »

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

No matter what you think Europe needs, how would you argue that the Catalonians shouldn't have a right to self determination? If, for the sake of argument, a clear majority of them want to be (fully) sovereign from Spain, do you think Madrid has a right to suppress that? And one step up, do you think Brussels has?

Do you have the same opinion about Kosovo?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#630

Post by smcl »

_Tev wrote: post #490
smcl wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not convinced, it requires some impressive mental gymnastics to turn a 5% “No” (and 10% Yes/No) into a majority

Again - read the GP. 2014: 20% No, 40something turnout. Independence has good support, but it is huge decision. Considering the gravity of the issue that's weak.

You have magically inflated 10% "yes/no" plus 5% "no" and saying that means 20% "yes" (which is a stretch) ... and then extrapolated that to a majority somehow? Given the turnout then if we were saying "this is a definitive mandate for independence" then yes that would be a ridiculous statement ... but suggesting the opposite is absolutely preposterous.
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