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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#451

Post by wolco »

nextos wrote: post #324
ctdonath wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

Catalonia is as semi-autonomous as Texas right now.

But with transfer payments like Canadian provinces where they are paying more than receiving.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#452

Post by tertius »

narag wrote: post #160
tertius wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your opinion on what Catalonia will actually need to do to gain independence. Is civil war (however unlikely) the only way?

Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.

I'm asking a question, not making a statement or "talking of" as you say.

Stop telling people what to do.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#453

Post by vixen99 »

smcl wrote: post #262
bad_user wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you'll look at our history, there is no separation that happened peacefully. Historically speaking, an independence declaration is equivalent to a declaration of war. And Catalonia will receive no international support because all countries have regions with minorities that wished for independence at some point — well, except maybe from Russia, or other countries that want instability in the region.

The Scottish Government might support them - it's not much (we're only a semi-autonomous nation within the UK, so not exactly an international heavyweight) but they're not completely alone

This is what they did actually say:

'Commenting on referendum on Catalonia’s constitutional position, Scottish Cabinet Secretary said:

“The decision over Catalonia’s future direction is a matter for the people who live there, and the Catalan and Spanish Governments are perfectly entitled to take positions for and against independence.

“However, all peoples have the right to self-determination and to choose the form of government best suited to their needs, a principle which is enshrined in the UN Charter.

"The Edinburgh Agreement was an example of how two governments, with diametrically opposed views on whether or not Scotland should become independent, were able to come together to agree a process to allow the people to decide. It is essential that democracy and civil rights are respected in all countries.” '

https://news.gov.scot/news/statement-on-catalonia

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#454

Post by bnastic »

flexie wrote: post #242
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

I cannot imagine that it ends in a civil war. Civil wars happen when you have 1) a lot of young men, 2) who have little to lose, and 3) who are used to living a life with not much more comfort than that of a soldier (maybe even less) The young generation in Catalonia is small, they have a lot to lose, and they live very comfortable lives. I don't see them taking up arms. Maybe they will take to the streets for a few…

Those three points aren't valid for any of the civil wars I witnessed first hand

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#455

Post by tom_mellior »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #129
tom_mellior wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law Beating up people for trying to put a piece of paper into a box is not "the rule of law". The rule of law would have been to let people put pieces of paper into boxes, then go out the next day and arrest the organizers of the referendum.

I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest, allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and a greater more violent outcome. I would not have ordered such action, FWIW.

> I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest

No. "Police should only beat people as a last resort to keep them from causing direct, immediate bodily harm to others" is not a tough call at all.

Even if having police present was a good idea (it wasn't), they should have had the strictest orders to, you know, not hit people with sticks.

> allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and a greater more violent outcome

You are arguing for punishing people, by causing them physical harm, without court orders, for things others might possibly do in the future. You are arguing for the exact opposite of the rule of law.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#456

Post by lacion »

TallGuyShort wrote: post #188
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

this is true for many countries.

as an example, the US constitution does not allow secession either.

many countries had civil wars for unification long time ago, hence why secession is not allowed constitutionally in a bunch of them.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#457

Post by farresito »

narag wrote: post #396
pjc50 wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very difficult to predict what will happen and there has been considerable restraint so far, but Spain also had an armed separatist group for years (ETA), and crowd management can go very wrong very quickly. The 2011 London riots were extremely severe and lasted three days, despite not really having any political basis or leadership, and there were plenty of rightwing politicians calling for military interventio…

I have no crystal ball, but most of this people are just entitled rich kids. There are a few gangs in the movement that are used to organized violence, but most of the people shouting in the streets will not stand real mambo for five minutes. I do fear Russia involvement. Putin sent a messenger from South Osetia.

How are people supposed to take you seriously if you call us entitled rich kids. How ignorant. Care to explain what this real mambo is supposed to be? Sending the military?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#458

Post by kolbe »

diego_moita wrote: post #276

Canadian perspective here. We also had our troubles with separatism. Back from the 60's till the late 90's Quebec had very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture. They came very close to separating from Canada in 2 referenda. A few things decreased these tensions: compromise, increased economic dependence, immigration and cultural change within Q…

The lesson here: allow the Chinese to create a real estate bubble, so your country can have the economic resources to placate and pay off places you've colonized.

Within a decade of the Canadian real estate bubble pop, Quebec will be an independent nation. Mark my words.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#459

Post by tertius »

narag wrote: post #274
adrinavarro wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why "half" is often said: - 2015 elections were considered "plebiscitary", i.e. in absence of a referendum, pro-independence parties ran together as one "yes to independence" vote. They obtained 39.6% of the vote: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_regional_election,_201... - Added together to radical left (anti-capitalist, pro-independence) parties, it adds up to 47.8% of the vote. With ~75% turnout. ~35% of cens…

Well, the "half" is a way of simplifying. Next elections will show an updated numbers. The reason I say half is that it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough to bully the other half into a revolution that could cause a blood bath and creating millions of extrangers in their own country.

> it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough

I think that's why rhetoric isn't enough to actually stop the half that want a revolution.

What number is high enough in your estimation then?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#460

Post by iagovar »

david927 wrote: post #379
spankalee wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the 1000 year history have to do with anything? If the people want independence now, that's all that matters.

Catalan has always been its own country -- it just hasn't had the chance to have autonomy until now.

They already have autonomy. That's what an "autonomous community is". They practically have the same autonomy as an US state.
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