Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#511

Post by bad_user » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #375

simias wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members. So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region t…

And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance. Authority emanates from people, not from papers.

No dude, authority emanates from armies, which are never irrelevant. And the writing is on the wall.

I hope the Catalans that voted to leave have really good reasons to do it, because if the situation isn't defused somehow, there are some tough times ahead.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#512

Post by narag » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:16 PM UTC

cosarara97 wrote: post #492

philipov wrote: post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

is High Treason punishable by death in modern Spain?

There is no death penalty in Spain.

Also the longest sentence is 30 years. Even the worst criminals used to be released on parole after half sentence. So effective maximum penalty was really 15 years.

That was reformed a few years ago to make terrorists and serial rapers serve full term.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#513

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

Quinner wrote: post #297

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police, there specifically to suppress the vote.

> The only violence to be feared was committed by Spanish police

This is not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#514

Post by narag » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:22 PM UTC

alexandrerond wrote: post #510

narag wrote: post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…

I didn't frame anyone. I just said that the people calling the shots in this conflict are nationalists. In fact, I'm saying the majority of non-nationalistic people are just hostages in this fight, which are only good to convert more people to the cause.

No, the people in spanish gov are not nationalists. I have a lot of bad things to say against Rajoy but nationalist is not one.

And no, non-nationalists are not hostages. We are sick and tired of nationalism and most of us would have wanted the government to react much sooner to the abuses, specially the non-nationalists living in Catalonia that are the ones that have suffered this situation more directly.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#515

Post by ethbro » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:24 PM UTC

panglott wrote: post #503

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do? This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offere…

I get the sense it's the tail wagging the dog now in Madrid. They scored political points with the rest of the country keeping "those Catalonians" in line.

Now that action is required, the rest of the country is so riled up there's little room for compromise.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#516

Post by adrinavarro » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:25 PM UTC

kabouseng wrote: post #468

narag wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the "half" is a way of simplifying. Next elections will show an updated numbers. The reason I say half is that it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough to bully the other half into a revolution that could cause a blood bath and creating millions of extrangers in their own country.

It's funny because it seems "half" of Spain is bullying the other "half" of Spain to stay part of... Spain. *Half here is an approximation

In Catalonia, secessionists feel free to talk about their political stance, and secessionists do not. This is probably caused by the sheer amount of demonstrations (rather aggressive in tone as well) by a demographic that cannot exceed 50% in any election.

You could argue that "half of Catalonia" is bullying the other "half" of it. One with massive demonstrations and government-sponsored strikes, the other one, with law and courts?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#517

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:26 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #285

sametmax wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usual people are missing part of the story. Both side screw up. BOTH. E.G: there is a strong racism culture among Catalonia independentists, even against other Spaniards. They even invented part of their cultural heritage to sound more credible (look up their "ancestral cultural dance" origin, it is kinda funny). If you want your independence, not alianating the rest of your neighbors for decades can be a good sta…

I'm not saying it's a good thing, but is there any reason at all to believe that the rest of Spain would have allowed the referendum if only Catalonia had been very nice to everyone else? Seems like an excuse to me.

[deleted]

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#518

Post by toast0 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

saimiam wrote: post #263

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US "the government" typically applies to either all three branches (courts, legislature, executive) or occasionally to the latter two only. The latter definition is typically only used in the case of a lawsuit involving the state. This is in contrast to parliamentary systems where the government is formed of the dominant political party or coalition in parliament, and also gets to act as the executive branch.…

> more common This doesn’t sound right. I’d like to see some proof of this. I’m from India and I only use government to refer to the legislature which happens to commingle with the executive branch. I’d love to join the mainstream if my usage is in the minority. Also, Spain is a parliamentary monarchy so in a thread centered on Spanish politics, I feel you should use the word government as used by Spaniards.

It's more common in the US for government to mean all three branches. It seems to be more common in parliamentary countries for government to mean just the legislative branch (and possibly, when present, the monarch's implied consent?).

This is a point of confusion here, because this is a US based discussion site. So US persons say 'the government suppressed the election', Spain persons say 'no, the government didn't do it, the courts did it'.

To the US person objecting, it doesn't make a huge difference if judicial, legislative, or executive is suppressing an election -- suppressing an election is bad. How can a vote be illegal? Certainly the referendum may not be legal, and that should be decided by the courts, but we're not used to that being decided before holding the vote.

But do you have a word for the whole of government in the US sense? I can't think of something that's not awkward.

Edit to add: In the US sense, government also includes military and police. In the US those are mostly part of the executive branch, but may act at the direction of the judicial or legislative branches. In some countries the military is an effectively separate branch of government.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#519

Post by ctdonath » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:27 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #348

ctdonath wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US constitution has worked quite well (despite our penchant for drama) for a couple centuries. Oversimplified: recognize states as semi-autonomous, localize governance as much as possible, balance voting power to prevent "tyranny of the majority", emphasize individual rights & liberty. Too much of bossing around others does not end well.

The US did have a civil war during those couple of centuries, though.

Largely because "50.1%", living hundreds or thousands of miles away, took to bossing the "49.9%" secessionists around.

It also involved imposing a massive moral change with enormous economic consequences, which people understandably had some objections to. Ending slavery as a primary institution was costly.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#520

Post by alexandrerond » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:32 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #507

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…

There's a LOT of people in Catalonian independence movement (or nationalists).

I guess some are in for the economic advantages. Others are in because they feel culturally different. Others because Spain is too right wing. Or because they think its their historical right. Or because the new country would be better managed. Or because an independent Catalonia can better help the peoples of the world against the tyrants of capitalism and open their borders to immigrants (true story). And I guess some are in because they need to be in a team and relate to other people.

For most there will be a mixture of reasons (good and bad). The Spanish government torpedoed and blocked initiatives for more autonomy in the past fueling this feelings above the tipping point.

Many of the real problems behind were probably addressable within an evolved Constitutional frame which the defenders of the unity of Spain never cared to look at.

Note that independence does not necessarily mean economic advantage for Catalonia. In the EU they would have to help poorer EU countries. Outside of it they would not have access to the common market (they'd probably need to become a tax heaven).