Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#501

Post by pvaldes » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:06 PM UTC

handelaar wrote: post #482

narag wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum That's wrong. There were a handful of injured, don't believe the propaganda. Most international media that were fooled by that lies have acknowledged this much.

Oh FFS. We know what we saw on TV outside your little PP-controlled broadcast TV bubble. I was watching footage of your police beating the shit out of people all day long . This particular argument -- "fake news, it didn't happen" -- is outside of Spain the most ridiculous Trumpish nonsense imaginable. "Lies"? I saw it with my own eyes in real time. Looking us right in the eye and insisting that black is white is off…

Are internet, Twitter and Youtube now controlled by PP? I don't think so.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#502

Post by simias » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

gonvaled wrote: post #375

simias wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brexit was made possible by article 50 of the treaty on european union[1]. This article was introduced by the treaty of Lisbon[2] which was approved by the european parliament and ratified by all EU members. So while only UK citizens got to vote on brexit the legal possibility to exit the union was actually approved by all the EU members. If there was an article in the spanish constitution that allowed for a region t…

And that is exactly the problem. A state constitution which is unable to adapt to a changing society is destined to irrelevance. Authority emanates from people, not from papers.

I'm not sure I understand your point. Do you think the majority of spaniards would support amending the constitution to allow for a region to declare independence? Seems really dubious to me. And if not, then why blame the constitution?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#503

Post by panglott » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:07 PM UTC

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

The key point for me was when Spain announced that they were going to remove Catalonia's autonomy and dissolve its parliament. What did they expect Catalonia to do?

This seems like an iconic example of what NOT to do when faced with an independence referendum. Compare the situation in Scotland or Canada, where AIUI the central government grudgingly permitted the referendum, campaigned on the issue locally, and offered symbolic concessions to local autonomy while focusing heavily on the pragmatic risks and costs of independence. In Catalonia by contrast we have plenty of images of the police violently disrupting the referendum and independence protesters, then pledging to end local autonomy altogether.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#504

Post by alexandrerond » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

syrgian wrote: post #404

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Well, while the Catalan politicians will indeed enjoy power and fame if they win, they face a very unpromising future if they fail, such as prison and asset seizure. I doubt it is a rational, cost-efficient choice to support the independence. On the other hand, the Spanish/pro-union politicians are untouchable and the risks they take, much lower.

IMHO, nationalism in Europe is not a rational. If you listen to their discourses lately, there's hardly anything rational in them. I think their fight for independence could possibly be defended rationally, but they express themselves under the assumptions that 95% of people want it and that things are 100% legal. Real world is a bit more complicated.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#505

Post by kafkaesq » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:08 PM UTC

hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain

That's (very) interesting and useful information, on a certain intellectual level.

But you know, sending legions of paid goons (clad head-to-toe in black, comic-book style, no less) to randomly beat people in the streets (and in stairways, hallways... wherever they felt like it, apparently) has a way of nor only more or less completely delegitimizing your position, within the EU and on the international stage -- but in getting those affected put aside their differences, and take a stand to protect themselves, once and for all, against further abuses.

Which, as a directly result of the national government's actions, is apparently what is now happening. And the fact that you aren't even mentioning the recent violence in your 8-point summary goes a long way to explain what's increasingly driving so many people to the the pro-independence side in the first place.

And BTW on the history front, there was also this guy named Francisco Franco, and certain extremely unpleasant events in the 20th century you're also very conspicuously not mentioning. And all the bodies being dug up and forensically analyzed, in all those unmarked graves, even today.

But let's not go there.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#506

Post by lisper » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:09 PM UTC

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

There is a very similar dynamic in U.S. politics between extremists on the right and the left, both of whom need each other in order to remain relevant. The big difference is that in the U.S. leftist extremists have been all but eliminated, so rightist extremists need to invent all kinds of boogymen to replace them. Gays and Muslims and their supporters are currently being cast in this role.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#507

Post by jasode » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:11 PM UTC

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union.

To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements". Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't help people understand it better.

Would it be clearer for outsiders to look at it as a mostly economic independence? For example ... to use a (tortured) analogy, imagine that California wants to secede from the USA because citizens (especially the wealthy ones in Silicon Valley) feel too much of California tax dollars prop up poorer non-performing states like Mississippi and Alabama. Also, the corrupt USA federal government is spending too much $$ on unneeded military expenses like tanks and bailing out Wall Street. Therefore, California feels its unfair and wants independence to run their own affairs. To parallel a similar confusion of the "true point"... if we simply describe the independence movement as "State Secessionists fighting the Feds", it adds abstract labels to the opposing sides but doesn't really explain the situation.

Is there a more primary undercurrent to the Catalonia independence movement than the economic analogy above?

(One example of a Catalan pro-independence answer talking about economic grievances and corruption: https://www.quora.com/Why-do-many-Catalans-want-to-secede-fr...)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#508

Post by narag » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

alexandrerond wrote: post #495

microcolonel wrote: post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "make history". In this case, though, these politicians do so at great personal risk. Many are already imprisoned. Even if Cataluña gains sovereignty, chances are that they will be held for high treason by the Spanish authorities. The Spanish authorities are taking…

> Many are already imprisioned That's inaccurate, there are 2 civil society leaders (not politicians) imprisoned, and the alleged reason is not their support of the independence. That said, they should not be in jail (imho). Note that greater risk is accompanied with greater personal, social gains (as a nationalist, I guess it is nice to have the chance to be a father of the nation). That doesn't give (or take from)…

These two guys were the leaders of a crowd that kept under siege overnight a public building where a Catalonia court officer was making a search escorted by police.

The crowd vandalized several police cars and these two guys are caught in video on the roof of one car directing the vandals so you're right, the alleged reason is not their support of independence.

About the risk for all of these nice folks: wait and see.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#509

Post by justin66 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

Radim wrote: post #40

adekok wrote: post #5

FTA The Catalan government said that of the 43% of potential voters who took part in the referendum, 90% were in favour of independence. In a referendum where people who wanted to vote "no" didn't show up, because of fears of violence. This just isn't a reflection of the will of the population.

Sure, but the question is, which population ? A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset. Otherwise there's this icky question of what subset, what "social unit", is allowed to claim independence? Spain? Catalunya only? Barcelona only? La Rambla? Jose down the street, as an individual, in his own referendum-of-one? This ad-absurdum…

> A referendum conventionally happens country wide, surveying a % of the whole population. Not in a self-selected population subset.

In the recent Scottish independence referendum, resident Scottish people voted.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#510

Post by alexandrerond » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 5:13 PM UTC

narag wrote: post #497

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…

I didn't frame anyone. I just said that the people calling the shots in this conflict are nationalists.

In fact, I'm saying the majority of non-nationalistic people are just hostages in this fight, which are only good to convert more people to the cause.