Live data from Hacker News

Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

591–600 of 785 posts

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#591
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the "half" is a way of simplifying. Next elections will show an updated numbers. The reason I say half is that it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough to bully the other half into a revolution that could cause a blood bath and creating millions of extrangers in their own country.

> it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough I think that's why rhetoric isn't enough to actually stop the half that want a revolution. What number is high enough in your estimation then?

To start a revolution and provoke a blood bath?

Is "none" good enough for you?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#592
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the "half" is a way of simplifying. Next elections will show an updated numbers. The reason I say half is that it's nonsense to pretend that approximately half of a population should be enough to bully the other half into a revolution that could cause a blood bath and creating millions of extrangers in their own country.

It's funny because it seems "half" of Spain is bullying the other "half" of Spain to stay part of... Spain. *Half here is an approximation

Non nationalists in Spain are like 85% to be conservative.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not how referendums work. Are you saying that if tomorrow you and few buddies decided to set up a new country, on a land you own, via a "referendum", the government should just go with it?

More like you and a couple millions of buddies?

At exactly which number does democracy allow a group of people to secede?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#594

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Even the word nationalist implies that Catalonia is a nation that was never true.

The same could be said of Estonia in the recent past, and it has done quite well as an independent nation.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#595
post #573
post #497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This mischaracterization is very common. The phallacy is framing the people against nationalism as nationalists. It's the same dirty trick as saying that atheism is just another kind of religion. Of course you add the "extreme-right" insult for good measure. Most people in Spain are not nationalists of any kind. That's just a lie. Nationalist votes are, being most generous under 10% of national grand total. People op…

Not to be a dick about it, but a fallacy is a mistaken belief while phalluses are penises. So a 'phallacy' might mean a mistaken penis, which is oddly self-referential. :P

You should understand what they want to do us with it :)

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#596

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. The best course of action for the Catalan parliament would have been to call an election and then if they won it with a decent majority used that as their mandate to declare independence. As it is they dont have a solid mandate so it is easier for Spain and the EU to ignore them, however a…

> You dont need outside support to declare independence You don't. But you do need it for anyone in the world to accept is as a fact. A region like that cannot isolate itself from the rest of the world.

If a group of people had enough military might to declare themselves independent and not fall to subsequent invasion, then it doesn't matter what the rest of the world "thinks", they are independent.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#597
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Democratic will is the will of voters, by not voting you choose to let others decide for you. You can’t reward people for not voting, that’s just utterly insane.

What you can't do is to reward people voting on a poll that the majority does not want to vote in.

Why not? If the majority doesn't want to make their opinion known, that's fine, but I don't see how they can blame others for continuing on despite their silence.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#598
post #390

This was just a rhetoric declaration as they knew that the government would trigger the 155 article moments after this declaration. In practical terms, it means nothing. At least nothing for Catalonia as a region. The Catalonian government, however, will face rebellion charges on Monday. They can get up to 30 years in prison. Why did they do this ? No idea. I hope someday we can get to know the intrahistory of all th…

Because they feel they have a mandate? Or said differently, what would you do? You campaigned for it, organized a referendum, won it and now you do not follow through? What would your voters say?

>>> Because they feel they have a mandate?

This is basically what they say, but this only appeal the people's emotions, making them appear as altruist servants of the Catalonian people. Sorry, I am too old to believe in fairytales. No offense.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#599

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But most of those small arms suck. In Vietnam and Afghanistan they had weapons being sent to them including stuff like artillery and mortars. A bunch of militia with store bought guns(many pistols or hunting rifles) doesn't really compare to guys supplied with full automatics and RPGs.

Consider also that there are arms manufacturers and state militias all across the country. If it's California, they have (some of) Northrop Grumman. If it's Virginia, they have General Dynamics Mission Systems.

Both of which can get magically disappeared in hours with the superior weaponry and numbers in the hands of the federal government.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#600

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the U.S., no one disputes that secession is legal. The whole country was founded by secession. It is, however, well-established by precedent that if any states do secede, the remaining states will then be able to launch a war of conquest against them, and re-annex their territory back into the union as a new entity with exactly the same name, borders, and government structure as before the secession occurred. If y…

> Viral videos of people getting beaten by police is only going to increase the number of people willing to fight to make it stop More lies. The 90% of this videos were proven fake

As an American, I am automatically suspicious of any claim that video of a cop beating someone has been faked.

While we do tend to think that our cops are the best in the world at being unnecessarily violent against suspects, especially minorities and pet dogs, we are aware that cops in other countries are also capable of lesser brutality. Except in Scandinavia, where suspects are ordered into the comfy chair, offered the hot tea, told they have been very naughty, and given actual help towards not repeating their crimes--and that somehow actually works for them.~

We have a nationwide protest movement organized entirely around the suspiciously-high number of black men dying during police encounters or while in police custody. And every time, the video comes out, and the police say, "That isn't what it looks like. It was entirely justified use of force. We investigated ourselves thoroughly, and cleared ourselves of all wrongdoing. Thoroughly."

If an American cop can kill someone for "taking a fighting stance" and "moving a hand toward his waistband," I can consider that maybe Spanish cops might punch someone in the face for committing an overt and obvious act of rebellion against their national government, participating in an event that could sunder the political tranquility of the entire country. It might even be a really strong punch--like, enough to leave a bruise for a few days.~

Half of the U.S. is horrified at the idea of people getting physically attacked for the act of voting. The other half is sorely disappointed at the lack of blood in the streets. There may be some overlap.

Anyway, in the U.S., the police tell blatant and obvious lies whenever they get caught on camera doing something terrible. The cop-cheerleaders believe the lies without hesitation, and the cop-haters don't believe anything a cop says, regardless of the subject. So the only way to really counter video evidence is with more video evidence, from a different angle. All referees and umpires are blind when the call is against our team, but we will grudgingly accept video review of the play. All I have seen is the original video. I haven't seen the video showing how they faked those videos. In the absence of any such evidence, my default assumption is that the official government story is deliberately crafted prevarication.

Post reply on HN