Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#551

Post by StreamBright » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Even the word nationalist implies that Catalonia is a nation that was never true.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#552

Post by CaptSpify » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:03 PM UTC

ben_w wrote: post #209

megous wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politically active get to decide. I'm not sure why expect it to be otherwise.

Those who wanted to stay would (I suspect) also believe that the referendum was illegal, as per the court order saying so. Why bother showing up to an illegal referendum, especially when the very fact of it being illegal means no result can be trusted as accurate?

Because the referendum still took place means that some people don't care about it being illegal.

Politics affects you whether you find it "illegal" or not

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#553

Post by alexandrerond » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:04 PM UTC

dmichulke wrote: post #527

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

> Politicians are not focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police is not busy catching terrorists. Smaller states have fewer levels of hierarchy and are usually more efficient at what they're doing and less corrupt. Also, people have it easier to exert pressure on their representatives, be it by throwing stones in their windows, not serving the prime minister at the local bakery or j…

This might be right. But also note that Spain already features a lot of decentralization and Catalonia is at the head of this.

This is very illustrative https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_communities_of_Spai...

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#554

Post by tom_mellior » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:06 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #470

tom_mellior wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I think it's actually a tougher call than you suggest No. "Police should only beat people as a last resort to keep them from causing direct, immediate bodily harm to others" is not a tough call at all. Even if having police present was a good idea (it wasn't), they should have had the strictest orders to, you know, not hit people with sticks. > allowing the referendum to resolve could easily foment more unrest and…

OK, AIUI the law in Spain means that only central gov can order a referendum. The vote was declared illegal and those party to it were thus breaking the law, conspiring to harm the constitutional standing of the country. If you were voting, supporting voters, etc., you were breaking the law, refusal to stop is contravening the law and the police should then act accordingly, using force if people refuse to stop suppor…

> OK, AIUI the law in Spain means that only central gov can order a referendum. The vote was declared illegal and those party to it were thus breaking the law, conspiring to harm the constitutional standing of the country.

My understanding is the same. Which is why I wrote above that they should have gone out and actually arrested the separatist leaders who organized all this. This could have played out in the courts (up to the Court of Justice of the European Union, I would guess).

But sending a few thousand (or tens of thousands?) police against millions of voters was not about this. Whatever they thought they were trying to do, it was not possible with these numbers. And as far as I can tell, they did not try to arrest people. They did not try to get people's personal data to get them before of a court at some other point. They did not show up in time to simply barricade the doors of polling stations. In short, they were not enforcing or upholding the law in any meaningful sense.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#555

Post by narag » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:07 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #526

narag wrote: post #508

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These two guys were the leaders of a crowd that kept under siege overnight a public building where a Catalonia court officer was making a search escorted by police. The crowd vandalized several police cars and these two guys are caught in video on the roof of one car directing the vandals so you're right, the alleged reason is not their support of independence. About the risk for all of these nice folks: wait and see…

Try to corner several FBI people and members of the justice system basically kidnapping them inside a building from 11 AM to 4:00 AM of the next day. Meanwhile vandalice and paint the FBI cars, fill the cars with garbage, steal weapons in the car and make selfies in the roof of the cars using a megaphone asking people to resist and not to leave. What do you expect would happen next with your probability of facing som…

Exactly. It seems that people from outside of Spain is so confused about what's happening here because they can't believe how lenient and forgiving our authorities are.

In any other country, included every single one of our close neighbours like France, UK or Germany, what we have seen here would have been inmediately stopped in the blink of an eye.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#556

Post by robrenaud » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

Yeah, as a native North American English speaker, I will say that the courts are definitely part of what I understand government to be, and it would be very confusing to think of the government as only consisting of the legislature.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#557

Post by microcolonel » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:08 PM UTC

pvaldes wrote: post #496

microcolonel wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see how quickly people will downplay and deny the actions of the Guardia Incivil. If the referendum is illegitimate, why suppress it? ;- )

Because they were planning to spend millions of euro in an illegal thing. Money directly stolen from people like you and me.

The Spanish government regularly wastes Catalonian money, including sending in police to suppress this technically illegitimate vote. Whatever this vote cost to administer, it is a pittance in the grand scheme of things, especially considering the people seem to be willing to bear the economic burden of attempting to gain sovereignty.

If their crime is misappropriating funds for the referendum, then surely the police should be arresting the politicians, not harassing the public at large.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#558

Post by tomjen3 » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

simias wrote: post #101

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it seems can either turn into a civil war When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. I am convinced that there is a limit on the violations of Human Rights that Europe will be able to tolerate from a state member.

"civil war", "genocide". Come on people, don't throw these words willy-nilly, leave that to bad news outlets. Yes, the spanish government was quite brutal in its attempt to stymie the referendum (probably unnecessarily so) but we're not on the verge of a catalan genocide in any way, shape or form. If you keep abusing words they end up losing their meaning.

Is it genocide to shoot at protesters if they are primarily a particular ethnicity?

Because that may be what Spain has to do to force Catalonia to comply.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#559

Post by narag » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

Boothroid wrote: post #434

narag wrote: post #396

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no crystal ball, but most of this people are just entitled rich kids. There are a few gangs in the movement that are used to organized violence, but most of the people shouting in the streets will not stand real mambo for five minutes. I do fear Russia involvement. Putin sent a messenger from South Osetia.

This 'Russians did it' meme is becoming prevalent. Is there evidence or just rumour?

It's in the press openly. Osetia was a... well you can google the visit and the country.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#560

Post by robrenaud » Fri, Oct 27, 2017, 6:10 PM UTC

_r_o_y_ wrote: post #387

ecshafer wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really not a useful argument. Self determination is a natural right. The idea that it's against the law to seek it doesn't work when the people themselves are arguing they don't want to be under that law.

Then you should use the process laid by the constitution to change it, not unilaterally decide the law doesn't apply to you.

This argument seems a little bunk to me. Certainly my nation (US) wouldn't exist if they followed this logic.