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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
521–530 of 785 posts
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#522It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…
"It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union."
And I think it is very hard to discuss something, by starting with telling everybody else that they are wrong. Now while it is true, that the conflict is also a clash of different nationalist, it is simply oversimplification and plainly wrong to reduce it to that. And also missleading. As the catalan nationalism is of a very different kind, than the spanish one.
From my experience, the spanish nationalism is classical chauvinism - or plain open fascism. Spain is superior. Period. Spain also never had a denazification since Franco. There simply are still many people in spain who still refer positiv to fascism. Also in positions of power. And the catalans simply want to live their culture, free from spanish interference.
The catalan language was allmost forbidden for quite some time! And many died, were tortured or disappeared who did not bow their head low enough to the fascists. So one should not forget that long episode.
But yes, recently things were a lot different - thats why most catalans would have voted no - if spain would have granted them a referendum. But since spain did not talked to them, but acted again like a empire to their peasants - it seems to many, that spain once again has dropped their masks and showed how they really are and think - so now they want to leave.
And yes, I think it is very sad for europe indeed, if this kind of empire-thinking and chauvinism gets the support of the EU. And the right of self-determination only gets taken seriously if it is some geopolitical interest, like in Kosovo.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#523Earlier quoted context omitted.
> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.
I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…
When tyranny starts to come in there's a long period where the government can order the police / military to stand down, but doesn't have the power to order them to commit atrocities themselves.
So there's usually a violent group of government supporters who don't have any special arms or training. eg, Hitler's brown shirts.
The second amendment is very affective against them.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#524Earlier quoted context omitted.
And that’s great. People have a right to self determination. Not just who they vote for, but who votes with them. Without it democracy is a sham.
People also have the right to remain. It is not clear that a majority wants to secede, the percentages are close to 50% though. So want happens with the rest of the people. Besides the independent Catalunya movement does not apply that freedom to its regions and considers Catalunya indivisible (For instance they deny the right of Tarragona to secede an hypothetical Catalunya state https://youtu.be/3eS-j9Wx8lw?t=999 )…
But it's my understanding that most people didn't vote against seceding either, which does not mean that they want to stay.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#525Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't frame anyone. I just said that the people calling the shots in this conflict are nationalists. In fact, I'm saying the majority of non-nationalistic people are just hostages in this fight, which are only good to convert more people to the cause.
No, the people in spanish gov are not nationalists. I have a lot of bad things to say against Rajoy but nationalist is not one. And no, non-nationalists are not hostages. We are sick and tired of nationalism and most of us would have wanted the government to react much sooner to the abuses, specially the non-nationalists living in Catalonia that are the ones that have suffered this situation more directly.
I don't know under what prism you do not consider the PP party not nationalists, when they are the direct successors of the Spanish National Catolicism movement that ruled Spain under Franco's dictatorship.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#526Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Many are already imprisioned That's inaccurate, there are 2 civil society leaders (not politicians) imprisoned, and the alleged reason is not their support of the independence. That said, they should not be in jail (imho). Note that greater risk is accompanied with greater personal, social gains (as a nationalist, I guess it is nice to have the chance to be a father of the nation). That doesn't give (or take from)…
These two guys were the leaders of a crowd that kept under siege overnight a public building where a Catalonia court officer was making a search escorted by police. The crowd vandalized several police cars and these two guys are caught in video on the roof of one car directing the vandals so you're right, the alleged reason is not their support of independence. About the risk for all of these nice folks: wait and see…
Try to corner several FBI people and members of the justice system basically kidnapping them inside a building from 11 AM to 4:00 AM of the next day. Meanwhile vandalice and paint the FBI cars, fill the cars with garbage, steal weapons in the car and make selfies in the roof of the cars using a megaphone asking people to resist and not to leave.
What do you expect would happen next with your probability of facing some jail time?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#527It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…
> Politicians are not focused on crushing poverty, judges are not working to end corruption, police is not busy catching terrorists.
Smaller states have fewer levels of hierarchy and are usually more efficient at what they're doing and less corrupt.
Also, people have it easier to exert pressure on their representatives, be it by throwing stones in their windows, not serving the prime minister at the local bakery or just voting with their feet.
Decentralization is often an improvement.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#528Earlier quoted context omitted.
>miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. To me, it seems your characterization of "true point" adds layers of abstractions such as "nationalists" and "right-wing movements" . Sure, you're writing text that can be considered "correct" but it actually doesn't h…
There's a LOT of people in Catalonian independence movement (or nationalists). I guess some are in for the economic advantages. Others are in because they feel culturally different. Others because Spain is too right wing. Or because they think its their historical right. Or because the new country would be better managed. Or because an independent Catalonia can better help the peoples of the world against the tyrants…
> For most there will be a mixture of reasons (good and bad).
Are there objective criteria for figuring out whether a reason is good or bad? Or do you just mean your opinion?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#529Earlier quoted context omitted.
The new reality is that Spain is probably going bankrupt.
Nonsense. Most of the big companies have left Catalonia last month. Half of Catalonia population doesn't want independence. Rule of law will be restored in a few weeks and all the thugs that have promoted this idiocy will be jailed. Edit: to the person responding, you only see what you want to see. Police acted according to judiciary orders and there were no deaths and just a handful of injured people. Try to resist…
> The Guardian had to admit they've been duped.
Link please?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#530It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…
"It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union." And I think it is very hard to discuss something, by starting with telling everybody else that they are wrong. Now while it is true, that the conflict is…
> And many died, were tortured or disappeared who did not bow their head low enough to the fascists. So one should not forget that long episode.
Note that this happened all over Spain, it was not just Catalonia suffering this.
> Spain also never had a denazification since Franco
Spain has had a low-speed consolidation of its democratic system. It is important to realize that, even though slow, it is miraculous that Spain got out of such regime without bloodshed and successful coups (though one was attempted). The slow process is the price Spain paid for that.
Believe me when I say Catalonia is not helping to get the fascists away from power.
> The catalan language was allmost forbidden for quite some time!
Resentment may fuel nationalist feelings, but makes a bad argument in the current setting. There are so many things to be resentful about in totalitarian regimes from 40 years ago...