I still don’t understand, which problem independence it’s going to solve for Catalonian people
Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
231–240 of 785 posts
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#232Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…
>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…
How to solve voter turnout? free donuts?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#233Earlier quoted context omitted.
Nice catch 22 - between (2) and (8). You are allowed to secede if you vote for it ... but you're not allowed to vote to secede.
You are allowed to vote to parties that want the secession and promise to vote for Constitution reform. The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence. This question is presented over and over again as a Catalonia vs rest of Spain, when it's actually a debate that's not settled inside Catalonia. Parties that don't propose independence had less votes than the ones that do, the electoral system being th…
"The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence" - in your opinion perhaps. Many others have a different opinion. But this is something that could easily be settled by ... a vote on independence.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#234Earlier quoted context omitted.
Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence.
> Stop talking of Catalonia as if there were only one opinion. At least half of catalans don't want independence. Citation needed.
See the distribution of votes for the regional Parlament.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#235Let's see how long this very post-modern independence declaration stays (mostly) peaceful. If non-violence is maintained, even in the context of the adversarial positions (unionists VS non-unionists) we may have a situation of overlapping sovereignties in same (or mostly same) territory.
I disliked the populist and the un-democratic tone set by both sides on this matter since the referendum, but if this works out peacefully it may set a precedent for future group sovereignty movements.
Overall, I think this is another nail in the still open coffin of westphalian-nation-states.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#236It's been a bit of bad luck what happened. On the Spanish side, the party at the Government did not have enough votes to freely apply their own policies. By helping provoke a polarizing crisis, they hugely improve their chances for an absolute majority to improve their power position should there be an election in Spain. Had they negotiated with Catalan Government, their future chances for a huge win would be a lot l…
> On the Catalan side, there was not enough votes to morally claim for independence
Fair enough. How much % census would you consider enough? Catalan pro-independence had higher % than say for instance Brexit vote. And a good chunk of the % was lost to Spanish Police "raids", quite violently boycotting the peaceful vote.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#237Earlier quoted context omitted.
I keep reading this in international media. The Spanish government didn't declare the referendum illegal. It was the top court, which is independent from the government. The government ensures that the law is applied once that is decided. That said, I think Spain should have held a referendum (by changing the constitution). Everything would have been much easier.
Who is paying the judges wages? For important matter like that, it is difficult to trust that the State and the government have totally no implication.
This, and: Who are funding the independence movement?
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#238Earlier quoted context omitted.
>>> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won The UK government thought like you. It allowed the people to vote for Brexit, thinking it would never pass. And here we are today.
And that’s great. People have a right to self determination. Not just who they vote for, but who votes with them. Without it democracy is a sham.
People also have the right to remain. It is not clear that a majority wants to secede, the percentages are close to 50% though. So want happens with the rest of the people. Besides the independent Catalunya movement does not apply that freedom to its regions and considers Catalunya indivisible (For instance they deny the right of Tarragona to secede an hypothetical Catalunya state https://youtu.be/3eS-j9Wx8lw?t=999).
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#239Earlier quoted context omitted.
>It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. Did they? The EU doesn't support Catalan independence, the US doesn't support the movement, the Catalan independence has 0 backing from any outside source, while most countries see this as an internal affair within Spain. Madrid ev…
You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks. The best course of action for the Catalan parliament would have been to call an election and then if they won it with a decent majority used that as their mandate to declare independence. As it is they dont have a solid mandate so it is easier for Spain and the EU to ignore them, however a…
> You dont need outside support to declare independence, it is of no concern to those in Catalan what the US or anyone else thinks.
Good luck without being self-sufficient.
Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain
#240Out of curiosity, does anyone know how this has affected the economy and real estate market in Barcelona?
I was in BCN a few days ago, and one year prior, as well. Everything seemed very normal, both in the touristic and non-touristic areas. The former was full of foreigners, just as it was a year ago. As for the latter area, I went to a large mall on the outskirts where seemingly only locals were, and it was also super full.