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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#391

Post by gboudrias »

diego_moita wrote: post #276

Canadian perspective here. We also had our troubles with separatism. Back from the 60's till the late 90's Quebec had very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture. They came very close to separating from Canada in 2 referenda. A few things decreased these tensions: compromise, increased economic dependence, immigration and cultural change within Q…

Hi, Québécois here.

> very good and valid reasons to separate from Canada, mostly because of prejudice against their language and culture

It's rare to see this acknowledged outside of Quebec, so, thanks.

> increased the use of French within the English speaking part of the country

It's important to note for the comparison that this has been eroded extremely quickly. Supreme court judges don't have to speak French, and the Supreme Court ruled (6-3) two years ago that provinces are not obliged to translate laws into French. The lesson here is don't take things for granted that aren't in the constitution. (I don't know how much language is an issue for Catalonia but I can only assume it's a part of it.)

> The Quebecois culture changed becoming more cosmopolitan and less Catholic (we call it "The Quiet Revolution").

I don't think you meant to misdirect here, but the Quiet Revolution happened in the 60s, and is therefore not a consequence of the modern sovereigntist movements which lead up to the first referendum in 1980.

> After these changes, separatism is today a political liability in Quebec. Their separatist party only succeeds when they disguise their separatism.

It is still an issue, in the sense that some people will vote for the party most "likely" to hold a referendum. In practice, we all know the status quo is too profitable for any powerful party to attempt real change.

It is also important to note that Quebec still very much feels like a different nation, to me at least, and we often diverge strongly on political issues related to culture. See this map from 2011: https://imgur.com/gallery/w3uoK9W

As long as this "two solitudes" phenomenon persists, the separatist movement will continue to exist. It is doubtful to me that there are any concessions on the part of Canada that could bridge this gap, but I'm certain that Spain is different, in that it could effectively have killed the whole affair with simple financial negotiations. In hindsight, the lack of openness to compromise was quite obviously a shortsighted decision.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#392

Post by Ajedi32 »

Findeton wrote: post #314
andrewla wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unclear on who exactly you're saying the players are here. I though that this vote was undertaken by the Catalan Government -- namely, the parliament. Are these distinct organizations? Who, exactly, are you saying the Catalan Parliament is petitioning?

The Catalan Parliament and the Catalan Government are very distinct bodies. The Catalan Parliament is just like congress in the US: it also includes representatives of the opposition. They are the lawmakers. The Catalan Gov is the body that applies laws and it includes no member from the opposition. Yes, the Catalan Parliament is petitioning. At least in the formal legal realm.

So legally, does the Catalan Government have to comply with that petition? And if not, wouldn't that mean the Catalan Parliament doesn't actually have any real authority? Or is there some other legal mechanism they could use to force the Catalan Government to comply?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#393

Post by mvitorino »

jannes wrote: post #339
mvitorino wrote: post #122

What does this even mean: "declared independence"? Have they ordered borders to be closed? Bank accounts to be frozen until new currency is introduced? Have people started throwing their Spanish passports and their euros into the trash? It just sounds like a lot like pure political manoeuvre without any kind of practical consequence.

I think for them it's only about having their own constitution and sovereignty. Another one of their goals might be to stop using the Spanish language, which a big part of the population has done already. They are perfectly fine with open borders, being a part of the European Union, using the Euro as currency, and even with keeping their Spanish passports (i.e. double nationality).

I'm sure they would, but once they are independent, they can't legally use the Euro. Would they even continue to be Spanish citizens and be able to travel freely in the Schengen area? A new state takes years to join the EU (assuming the EU would accept). How about sovereign debt?

All these (really important) issues that should be part of an extensive debate so that people could understand better what is expecting them on the other side.

Also, I don't know any country that allows constitutional changes to be done via a simple majority in parliament (they had 3 votes above simple majority).

The only reasonable exit at this point, I believe, is to have new elections.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#394

Post by mvdwoord »

narag wrote: post #253
smcl wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The thing is people, even in Catalonia don't want independence" - in your opinion perhaps. Many others have a different opinion. But this is something that could easily be settled by ... a vote on independence.

Last election had a majority of votes to parties that didn't proposed independence, that's a hard fact, not an opinion. And as you will soon learn, there is no need to settle that question, it was settled long ago.

I have heard this line of reasoning a lot, also in Dutch politics, but I disagree with it. General elections are too broad to pick any issue and simply state that the votes on the parties that hold a certain position on that issue are representative of the voters' position.

If you want to know about x, hold a referendum on x, not a general election on the whole alphabet.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#395

Post by confounded »

tolien wrote: post #208
guiomie wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

There’s always the risk that you don’t get what you want, like the UK’s referendum on membership of the EU.

Who didn’t get what they wanted?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#396

Post by narag »

pjc50 wrote: post #383
narag wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The international/European response is not set in stone and could wildly vary based on the Spanish response. That's absolutely wrong. And thinking that Spain will need to fire on civilians is ridiculous. Either wishful thinking or you are ridiculously misinformed.

It's very difficult to predict what will happen and there has been considerable restraint so far, but Spain also had an armed separatist group for years (ETA), and crowd management can go very wrong very quickly. The 2011 London riots were extremely severe and lasted three days, despite not really having any political basis or leadership, and there were plenty of rightwing politicians calling for military interventio…

I have no crystal ball, but most of this people are just entitled rich kids. There are a few gangs in the movement that are used to organized violence, but most of the people shouting in the streets will not stand real mambo for five minutes. I do fear Russia involvement. Putin sent a messenger from South Osetia.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#397

Post by petre »

gsnedders wrote: post #166
guiomie wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those are all valid points. But why didn't Spain support a referendum like Canada supported Quebec twice and the UK with Scotland? Like the OP said, this could all have been stopped if Spain had supported the vote and campaigned for the no. How could Catalonia get a 'legal' vote?

Stage one would be amending the Spanish constitution to get rid of the notion of Spain as being indivisible, and that's where it becomes really tricky, as you then need to get consensus from all of Spain to allow that.

Well, good luck with that. Spain was a fascist country for 40 years.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#399

Post by antientropic »

pjc50 wrote: post #362
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

> Catalan politicians face criminal charges and high treason and will be tried by them. The trial and subsequent execution of Patrick Pearse et al for treason in 1916 was the event which turned Irish independence from controversial in Ireland to a virtual certainty. Trial even without execution of the Catalan leaders is going to create martyrs for the movement, and their names will be invoked in the subsequent terror…

Spain has extensive experience with that though (see: ETA). The ETA lost in the end. Catalans may well turn to terrorism, but that will only cause them to lose international support.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#400

Post by pvaldes »

logfromblammo wrote: post #290
hummel wrote: post #88

Spanish here, I have family and home in Catalonia. 1) You need to read history to understand the situation. But not the history of the last 100 years, but of the last 1000. Catalonia was never independent, it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon. The kingdom of Aragon and the castle kingdom allied in a dynastic way and created what is known today as Spain. There is no 2) Voting is illegal, it is not illegal to vote but…

In the U.S., no one disputes that secession is legal. The whole country was founded by secession. It is, however, well-established by precedent that if any states do secede, the remaining states will then be able to launch a war of conquest against them, and re-annex their territory back into the union as a new entity with exactly the same name, borders, and government structure as before the secession occurred. If y…

> Viral videos of people getting beaten by police is only going to increase the number of people willing to fight to make it stop

More lies. The 90% of this videos were proven fake

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