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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#561

Post by marcosscriven »

marcosscriven wrote: post #179
frobozz wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a better mandate than UK leaving the EU: 92% pro, from a 43% turnout = 39.56% of the electorate in favour of Catalan independence. Compare to 52% of 72% = 37.44% of the electorate in favour of Brexit.

I see I have been down voted. As someone born in Barcelona, with dual Spanish/British nationality, all I can say with certainty is that I’m deeply saddened to lose not one, but possibly now two connections to my European neighbours.

Crazy. Even just expressing my own feelings on the matter is worthy of someone down voting. So very peculiar.

Someone doesn’t agree I am deeply saddened?!

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#562

Post by TallGuyShort »

bad_user wrote: post #476
TallGuyShort wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The illegality of their vote is supported by the judicial system, not political. However it came about, that's a really political situation to be in. It sounds to me like Spain has set up a legal framework in which war is the only way to leave a democracy. I'm not familiar enough with Catalonia's motive's here to judge their decision, but that's a shitty situation in which to make that decision. And to be clear, I…

You mention democracy and the " tyranny of the majority ", but that's exactly what a democracy is, a doubly edged sword. At this point Spain's citizens have the right to determine Catalonia's fate, just as the people living there. Not saying that democracy is an end goal and should be protected against all odds, but if you don't like how democracy works, you're free to propose an alternative. > "pay the price for liv…

> If I can proclaim my own bedroom to be independent, making up my own flag, then what's the point of having countries with borders and a Constitution?

That's actually a very good question. If Catalonia can claim itself to be independent and make up it's own flag, then what's the point of having Spain include it within its borders and govern it with it's Constitution?

I think there are some very obvious answers to "why we need government", and "why Spain should exist". But if the costs start outweighing the benefits of those answers, and the people stop being able to answer that question to themselves, the government either needs to check itself, or the people should be free to leave.

>> if you want to be free from the state's rule and laws, then it's no longer your land, unless you're able to defend it.

And that's why we have civil wars, and they're horrible and should be avoided at all costs. If Spain chooses civil war over finding a peaceful way to satisfy Catalonian separatists (if that's what they're being called? Not sure), I call that a failure.

> if you don't like how democracy works, you're free to propose an alternative

On HN, yes, and I've been a part of good conversations along those lines. If Catalonia doesn't like how democracy works, are they free propose an alternative? Their vote's not perfect either, but they're not seeing many good, peaceful alternatives.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#563

Post by pvaldes »

RobertoG wrote: post #473
pvaldes wrote: post #465

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, some of the ingredients here are the comrades of the self claimed anticapitalist party Popular Unity Candidacy (CUP) asking for some veeery peculiar things, (i.e. proposing to expropriate the Cathedral of Barcelona to make a market and a school of music there), and there was also a larvate (and sometimes not so larvate) racism and harassment against non indepentendist spaniards that last for years. Taking all o…

I checked. CUP, 8% of the votes. The other pro-independence parties mostly from the right. There goes the communism thing, what about the slavery thing? It seems to me that you are trying again the same trick.

Is a mix between extreme leftists and conservative elites trying to save themselves from corruption charges. Is a curious mix, I admit it.

In any case, again, was an example. Not meant to be taken literally.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#564

Post by alvatar »

alvatar wrote: post #75
icebraining wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side Thus supporting the case that Catalonia is being dragged down by Spain - even their propaganda machines are better! :D

Thank you for polarizing into "better and worse" humans.

I apologize for my interpretation and response. It wouldn't be the first time that I read or hear comments of Catalans being superior to the rest of the Spanish.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#565

Post by turc1656 »

alexandrerond wrote: post #202

It's very hard to see a discussion on this topic that does not miss the true point: This "conflict" is the fight between nationalist movements (Spanish and Catalan) which re-enforce each other in every turn for the worse of the majority and of the European Union. On the Catalan side, the Nationalist movement is used by dubious politicians which belong to the richer statements of Catalan society to grab power and "mak…

Let's be real for a minute. The reason this is as large of an issue is the same reason that there are very, very few peaceful secessions throughout history. Even then, "peaceful" is relative - there may not be full on war, but there are always "incidents". That reason is simple - there is no way to legally split from Spain. Things are specifically designed this way to always provide the ruling faction with the ability to claim a violation of the law has taken place and order must be restored. The same is true for the United States. There are defined rules for entities to become a member state. There is no mention anywhere in the US Constitution regarding whether or not a member state can leave the union, let alone what the process would be. An entire civil war was fought in the US over this issue.

Spain is clinging to the designed "lawlessness" that arises from any region wanting to leave it. Catalonia not being a part of Spain would substantially hurt Spain. Look at the numbers. 16% of the Spanish people live in Catalonia but they account for 19% of GDP. That 3% may not seem like a lot but when you do the math it comes out to mean that they are (((19/16)/(81/84))-1)*100=23.14% more productive than the rest of Spain in terms of GDP. That's massive. They also account for >25% of exports and 20% of foreign investment. Catalonia acts as a monetary boost to the rest of Spain. And they believe they are being taken advantage of in this regard by Spain.

Think about it this way - what options did the Spanish government have even once the court declared the original vote a few weeks ago to be unlawful? They could have allowed the vote to go on, and simply declared the results invalid/non-official/meaningless. Or they could have done what they chose to do - apply violence. Why did they make this choice? Simple - they didn't want to see the results of the vote because then the entire world would know, with certainty, what % of the Catalan people actually voted "yes". With the numbers we do have, it's a hefty percentage, certainly not some small minority that is somehow manipulating parliament.

Spain doesn't want to lose the economic boost, nor does it want to lose the land and resources. However, one must ask themselves whether or not a people have the right to choose their own government. Shouldn't people have the right to decide that their current government simply isn't working for them and they choose a new one? We already have this in democratic nations when you look at the country as a whole - the country can decide that there is change needed and take action. Why should anything change when you are simply talking about a region of the country that no longer wants to be part of the whole? Don't they still have the right to self-determination, for better or worse? This isn't really about nationalists, right wingers, left wingers, or anything like that. This is about a simple concept that has deliberately been ignored by both historical and modern governments. If a process were in place, this could be non-violent and remove much of the uncertainty.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#566

Post by pakitan »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

That's not how referendums work. Are you saying that if tomorrow you and few buddies decided to set up a new country, on a land you own, via a "referendum", the government should just go with it?

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#567

Post by microcolonel »

ryuker16 wrote: post #499
microcolonel wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other asymmetric warfare situations, supersonic jets have done very little to end a conflict. No sane person would ever want to start a war with a civil militia containing nearly all able-bodied men in a region; it's bad enough when just a couple per cent are against you, all with small arms. Imagine how bad it would be with 20%, 30%, 40% of the able-bodied against you.

But most of those small arms suck. In Vietnam and Afghanistan they had weapons being sent to them including stuff like artillery and mortars. A bunch of militia with store bought guns(many pistols or hunting rifles) doesn't really compare to guys supplied with full automatics and RPGs.

Consider also that there are arms manufacturers and state militias all across the country. If it's California, they have (some of) Northrop Grumman. If it's Virginia, they have General Dynamics Mission Systems.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#568

Post by alvatar »

6t6t6t6 wrote: post #248
alvatar wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say "brutal suppression" based on the images you saw in the media, right?

Pictures are easy to manipulate. Videos, not so much: https://spanishpolice.github.io/

Videos are taken mostly by those out in the streets, so there are obviously biased towards one side. Is it so hard to believe that both sides exert some kind of violence? Do you really believe that one side is entirely pacifist and the other is aggressive? That kind of narrative should be hard to believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_g4-4fMoMs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ak9224HG_E

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#569

Post by tomjen3 »

ben_w wrote: post #192
nemo44x wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When only one of the sides have weapons, there can not be a civil war, only a genocide. Certainly an argument in support of the second amendment of the United States.

I suspect the only reason the US government lets Americans think the second amendment would enable the population to forcibly remove an undesirable government, is because the weapons and strategic/tactical/leadership skills of the population are vastly out-classed by the armed forces. What good is a semi-automatic against a supersonic jet that just fired an air-to-ground missile in your direction? Plenty of AK-47s in…

Those weapons only win if you don't care about civilian losses (that is one way to win a counter insurgency, see Mandatory Palestine) - but by not caring about civilian casualties I mean you have to be willing to commit genocide (again, see the British actions in Mandatory Palestine).

If you do care about civilians (and I assume the US armed forces would be forced to care) a jet is probably not worth much against an AK-47, as long as that AK-47 is in the hands of a guy who is willing to hang out close to a bunch of civilians.

Again you can win a counter insurgency either by winning over the local population or by utterly destroying it (see manda, the Island of Melos).

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#570

Post by tomjen3 »

gsnedders wrote: post #171
eumenides1 wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a Canadian kid, i never understood why they would let Quebec go through with a referendum. Seems insane to just "divorce" a country (for lack of better words). As i grew up, i thought it was pretty progressive to allow it. As an adult, it seems like the only logical tactical option. A lot of people will claim that it isn't legal. They will be right. But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind.…

> But their constitution wasn't written with modern times in mind. 1978 really wasn't that long ago. I'd call 1978 modern times!

Counterpoint: it is only a year after their facist dictator died: Germany in 45 and 95 were very different places.
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