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Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#71

Post by thriftwy »

chrisbrowning wrote: post #27
Boothroid wrote: post #4

I guess Spain is hoping that power still comes from the barrel of a gun, judging by the violence employed on referendum day - but interested to see what the hell Spain thinks it can do if the whole of Catalonia goes on strike. I guess it's a battle of wills now. How much of the population of Catalonia really want independence, and what sacrifices are they willing to make to get it?

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

I can't name a single secessionist movement that got distracted by economy.

If anything, economic troubles reinforce the determination.

Once people take independence as a question of pride, they're extremelly reluctant of considering selling their independence for money.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#72

Post by marcosscriven »

johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

They can’t really claim a mandate for leaving when those who wanted to stay boycotted the vote. That said, it would have been much less divisive if a proper referendum had been sanctioned.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#74

Post by matthewmacleod »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #57
chrisbrowning wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Russia support Catalan independence?

Same reason they supported Brexit - it causes instability and weakens the EU.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#75

Post by alvatar »

icebraining wrote: post #44
alvatar wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The side supporting "yes" perpetrates equal amounts of violence. Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side (with the money from all Spaniards...)

Is just the propaganda machine is much more developed on that side Thus supporting the case that Catalonia is being dragged down by Spain - even their propaganda machines are better! :D

Thank you for polarizing into "better and worse" humans.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#76

Post by barrkel »

simion314 wrote: post #46
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Referendums are a way of converting democratic mandates into decisions; but the democratic mandate doesn't go away just because the referendum isn't valid.

More than 50% (70 of 135) of the democratically elected local parliament voted for independence too.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#77

Post by _jal »

harperlee wrote: post #56
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

> If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won They could have also lost in that case. There has been a huge for-independance campaign spanning 20+ years and including indoctrination of former children that now can vote. The last governments should not have ignored the problem, making instead an effort to provide objective information on what an independence entails. This is not something that you ca…

> indoctrination of former children that now can vote.

That's an odd way to refer to that thing parents do when raising their kids. We call it 'talking' to them.

You make it sound so sinister - almost like parents were passing on their religion or something.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#78

Post by darishante »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #57
chrisbrowning wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For better or for worse, there will be no independent Catalonia in the foreseeable future. About 40-50% of Catalans don't support this. The EU doesn't support this, no Western nation supports this (save maybe Russia if you consider them Western -- and even their position is unclear). Furthermore, Spain won't allow it, and they're the main actor in a position to do something about it. Even if Catalonia somehow manages…

Pardon my ignorance, but why would Russia support Catalan independence?

Russia seems to like Europe destabilized, in all possible ways.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#79

Post by matthewmacleod »

simion314 wrote: post #46
johnnyfaehell wrote: post #29

From my not so knowledgeable point of view we have: It seems the Spanish government messed up massively here. Instead of embracing a referendum about independence they decided to flatly declare it illegal and attempt to ignore the problem. If they initially embraced the referendum they could have won, I believe that a Yes vote to independence nearly always ends up failing. But instead what happened is, they blankly d…

But the referendum was invalid because of the constitution, you can't ignore the constitution because you want, you need to change the constitution.

Sure, but that’s not an unchangeanle fact. It’s totally legitimate, and a good constitutional and political move, to legislate for referenda where appropriate. It’s what happened in Scotland, and that was vastly more peaceful.

Re: Catalan parliament declares independence from Spain

#80

Post by beojan »

tom_mellior wrote: post #63
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying it's fine if the vote doesn't represent the democratic will of the people as a whole because the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law? So a minority group should be able to unilaterally dismantle a country contrary to the democratic wishes of the occupants? As presented you appear to stand firmly against democracy, is that so? If the vote has been carried out properly then there…

> the government was using violent means to ensure the rule of law Beating up people for trying to put a piece of paper into a box is not "the rule of law". The rule of law would have been to let people put pieces of paper into boxes, then go out the next day and arrest the organizers of the referendum.

The rule of law would have been letting people put pieces of paper in boxes, then laughing when they vote no anyway. From what I've seen, they would probably have voted against independence if Spain hadn't tried to stop the referendum.

Had they voted for independence anyway, the Spanish government could then refuse to recognize it because it was unconstitutional.

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