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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#181

Post by jordanb »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Yeah, Spain was looking like the good guys at first: rich Catalonia wants to keep all their tax money and not help anybody else. Nobody was supporting Catalonia and their illegal vote was completely irrelevant and wouldn't have been honored or respected.

What Spain should have said is "ok Catalonia, have your little vote, it doesn't mean anything." And then just ignored the whole mess.

Instead they sent in the brute squad and now you images of innocent people getting beat up in the street by Spanish thugs.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#182

Post by paulddraper »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89
lurker456 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

This is what the Confederate States of America did.

That line of thinking is very unpopular, at least in the US since that time.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#183

Post by wilun »

fcanela wrote: post #42
fcanela wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am uploading it so you can see it. (Nice downvote before letting me prove my words :) )

I am not excusing neither of the behaviors: both violents and not professional policemen are doing wrong. All your text is based not in what I said, but in yours interpretations of my words I am adding references for the women issue too.

So what is your point? Everybody can very well guess that there have been some violent civilian in that kind of situation. If you specifically respond to unprovoked police violence with that kind of cherry-picked information, its kind of natural your reader might think that you might think that there is a kind of justification, somehow.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#184

Post by MrPatan »

pipio21 wrote: post #136
MrPatan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

40 years ago Puyol used to say, first "paciencia" then "independencia". Now that independentists are doing what they have repeated millions of times they were going to do, it is a problem of the PP??? Leave me guess: You are leftist, communist maybe? How do I know? because your visceral hate is so strong you can't think at all.

If Rajoy had really wanted to fix the "Catalan problem", he'd have called the bluff of the referendum the first time around, like Cameron did in Scotland, the vote would have been a very clear "No", and that would have been it.

Instead, here we are. Yes, this is very much the PP's fault.

And absolutely, the Catalan politicians are another bunch of disgusting corrupt agitators, who will also benefit from the tension and violence. They are also loving it. They literally couldn't have hoped for a better outcome.

I was merely answering the question of "Why is the Spanish government acting in such a stupid way?"

Oh, and I'm afraid your "commie-dar" is a bit misaligned.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#185

Post by ino »

notspanishflu wrote: post #88
adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. The sovereignty of Catalonia falls on theirs (if they wish so).

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#186

Post by markvdb »

Clearly, identities (Catalan, Spanish, religious, atheist, ...) are very much layered, personal, and they fluctuate with time. How to reinvent the nation state (whether the Catalan, the Spanish or any other one) to take that into account seems to be a largely unanswered question.

Any good reading recommendations on that? Surely, there must be creative solutions! Maybe information technology can even help technically underpin progress in this area?

P.S. Good luck to all the Spanish and Catalan people that treat their neighbours with respect. I hope for a peaceful solution.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#187

Post by codedokode »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #160
codedokode wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Catalonia didn't voluntarily join Spain, they got annexed. This is how most countries were formed in the Middle Ages. You either are big enough to defend yourself or become a part of big enough country.

A lot of bad shit happened in the Dark Ages, that's why they are called the Dark Ages. Doesn't mean we shouldn't correct them now we know better.

If you allow anyone to declare independence then Europe might split back apart into hundreds of small provinces. For example, there were times when major Greek and Italian cities were independent states, what if they will want to return back to that time? In this case an external enemy will conquer those small states one by one like Pacman eats dots.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#188

Post by yxhuvud »

dgut wrote: post #143
gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.

That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.

Depends on where you draw the line of what is a democracy.

Sweden was certainly on the way towards it. There were elections and the parliament was pretty powerful (though less powerful than today. But that change happened in '72, and you'd be hard pressed to claim Sweden wasn't democratic before that). Votes were still weighted towards the rich, and women couldn't normally vote yet, though.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#189

Post by turbinerneiter »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #153
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

There is no flaw.

If a group of people doesn't want to be governed by a certain body they should have the right to secede.

A government derives it's right to rule by the people accepting this rule.

Obviously this is a really hard problem and it opens up the door for all kind of abuses, but ultimately democracy demands that. Democracy first needs a demos. A group of people who feel connected by whatever reason they like and agree to form a community. If the borders of the community are not drawn by the community itself, it's not democratic. Just look at all the wars being fought about borders which were drawn by colonial forces and didn't respect the locals.

In this I also see the power of parliament's and federal states - even if your vote don't win the election, you are still represented in parliament and you have the local gov. Without that, it would be hard to keep regions where a majority voted different than the whole nations majority.

Globalism, neo-liberalism, individualism - all that severely reduced the solidarity people have which each other. The internet then connected us with people that we share much more with than just area. All nations, democracy as a whole will have to face this tremendous challenge. And I have no idea how.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#190

Post by dgut »

gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #177
dgut wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's proportional. What are they supposed to use, water balloons? The naive support for Catalonian nationalists on this site is not surprising, though.

Words and votes - that is what we use in the UK to handle the issue of Scottish independence. It has proved much better than guns (c/f Scotland and the troubles in Northern Ireland). The Spanish police have gone in using force to prevent a democractic process.

Afaik the Catalonian separatist movement is a lot larger than the Scottish one, fueled by the last financial crisis.

I strongly doubt the UK can claim moral superiority above Spain.

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