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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#51

Post by faragon »

adambyrtek wrote: post #35
faragon wrote: post #28

The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian "hackers" are helping the rebels [2]. [1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51... [2] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...

This is from BBC which is generally considered a reliable source. Even if the referendum is illegal, it doesn't justify violence against peaceful protesters.

Of course there are injured people, including policemen. If you start a revolt, you can expect problems. What do you expect, peaceful anarchy? Police is acting after a Court order, ensuring the rule of law.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#52

Post by olegkikin »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

US slavery was legal, and it took a civil war to change that.

The right of people to self-determination is actually a quite important concept in the international law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#53

Post by reidacdc »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

I wonder if it's a (failed, obviously) attempt to control the optics.

As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence.

So if the vote proceeds, the Spanish government will be struggling to explain the result as being likely not representative, and illegal in any case, but they'll be doing so in the face of an invigorated independence movement that will be claiming a mandate. Even if the Spanish government's position is correct, this is a very hard PR problem.

If you can quietly prevent the vote from proceeding, you deny the independence movement the ability to claim a mandate, they have less energy, and your PR problem is easier.

Obviously, they got neither of these, but instead got a different flavor of PR disaster.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#55

Post by onemore2 »

bad_user wrote: post #10
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

This is lame reasoning. If that was the case democracy is just a dictatorship of the majority. Or a husband have a word when the wife wants to divorce.

You are just saying that if Catalonia wants independence they have to go to war and win it, because the Constitutions says the country is indivisible. Maybe you want the USA reintegrated into the UK, because british citizens didn't vote for the secession.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#56

Post by Aaargh20318 »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal

How can they be illegal ?

A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ?

'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of people through democratic elections for practical purposes. If 'the people' decide their government's services are no longer needed, then there is nothing the government can do. It's not their call.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#57

Post by adriand »

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that:

- mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous;

- requires a clear majority to be considered valid;

- mandates the involvement of all provinces and First Nations in negotiations following a vote in favour of secession;

- and stipulates that secession, if it proceeds, would require an amendment to the constitution.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarity_Act

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#58

Post by severino »

faragon wrote: post #28

The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian "hackers" are helping the rebels [2]. [1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51... [2] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...

This is not Spain, indeed, so don't expect people to support violence against voters, no matter what they were voting for.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#59

Post by dingaling »

bad_user wrote: post #10
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

The indivisibility of a nation was overruled when the EU nations ( sans Spain, Greece and Cyprus ) rushed to recognise the UDI of Kosovo.

At the time that was warned to be a dangerous precedent, and here we are.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#60

Post by pjc50 »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

Myself I'd say it was the narrow window between the end of the Berlin wall and the fall of the WTC. A dozen years.
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