Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes • Hacker News Board

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#81

Post by olegkikin » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:14 PM UTC

faragon wrote: post #64

olegkikin wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US slavery was legal, and it took a civil war to change that. The right of people to self-determination is actually a quite important concept in the international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

The US made a war against separatists, in order to ensure the civil rights: the losers wanted a self-determination involving the "right" of slavery. So "self-determination" for evil/egoistic/xenophobic causes is not reasonable at all. In Catalan region the population is split in two. It is not a "revolution against the central government", but for the power inside the region.

You're correct, but that wasn't my point. Just because something is legal / illegal, doesn't automatically make it right or good / wrong or bad.

I think they are trying to determine how the population is split by the voting.

If it's a large enough population that doesn't want to live under the Spanish rule, they shouldn't. And if there's a minority that does want to live under the Spanish rule, they still can, just move to Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#82

Post by zzzcpan » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Referendum is basically a crowd psychology thing, that allows people to believe there is a big support for the independence. This makes it easier to create a shadow government, convince some of the local police to take its side and pressure others to at least not to intervene. And with support from the crowd and inactive police it will be easy to take over government buildings, mass communication channels for propaganda, set up block posts, etc., eventually creating a separate county.

The government is in a hard position though, if it doesn't use force it loses. If it does it still might lose or even start a war, but at least there is a chance to stay in power.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#83

Post by polack » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ?

Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#84

Post by Aaargh20318 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

ringaroundthetx wrote: post #74

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still s…

> The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence.

Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was even born.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#85

Post by yokaze » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:15 PM UTC

bad_user wrote: post #10

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

How long did it take to change the sacrosanct constitution in response to Euro Crisis?

> The right to vote means nothing without liberal freedoms or without the indivisibility of the territory.

I see the point of liberal freedoms, but care to explain, why the right to vote means nothing, if there is independence?

And if so, why is the Guardia Civil not in Western Sahara, if indivisibility such a supreme good?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#86

Post by sbmassey » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:16 PM UTC

wav-part wrote: post #24

pjc50 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh?

What we see in todays world is lot of disagreements. Why ?. Because neither side has consistent interpretation of (social) contract. Why ? Because its subjective which is result of fairism. I am not really a good writer. I hope that clears it up. If not just ask.

What do you mean by "fairism"? Presumably not the Urban Dirctionary definition: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fairism

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#87

Post by tankenmate » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

blfr wrote: post #47

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation. If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.

Which shows the futility of trying to bend the will of a people peacefully committed to self determination.

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win. -- Gandhi

So has the Spanish state moved to the third phase and enabled the fourth?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#88

Post by notspanishflu » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

adriand wrote: post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens.

If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#89

Post by Aaargh20318 » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

lurker456 wrote: post #78

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.

> There is no easy solution.

Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough.

If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#90

Post by marindez » Sun, Oct 01, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

MrPatan wrote: post #36

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

>PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group.

That's a really miserable thing to say.