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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union. The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain has always defended that this right to self…

But the truth is self-determination is for nations and colonies. In this case, the right for self-determination is for Spain, not for a part of Spain.

Self-determination for some, miniature Spanish flags for others!

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#72
post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

And do you think these facts are unclear to either the Catalan government organizing the referendum or the Spanish government sending in 13000 "police" officers to stop them ?

Yet the Catalan government moves forward (because that's how they got elected in the first place perhaps ?) and Spain is using violence to stop them (also illegal, but no way the courts are going to do anything about it, those officers do not have the right to operate there).

The Catalan government is not stupid: they know most of the voting will be stopped. They declared that whatever votes they can gather, if 51% vote for independence, they will declare independence, illegal or not, however many votes they can gather and once declared they will presumably move their own police force directly against the Spanish force (that Catalan police force far outnumbers the Spanish police).

That the voting is obstructed seems to virtually guarantee that 51% condition will be satisfied, whereas it would be a tossup at best if there was a fair election. It seems the Catalan government was gambling that Spain wouldn't take the risk, and they were right. Tomorrow Spain is the enemy, and Catalunya will be united under the separatist government.

Sounds like it's a pretty good bet that more violence is coming.

Europe has a huge problem. Europe's economy has been stagnant for the past 10+ years in the vast majority of Europe. There are only a few exceptions to that. Germany, the Netherlands, ... and Catalunya. Spain does not satisfy either the debt conditions or GDP conditions of joining the EU, and Catalunya does. But that's a trivial legal problem: when European politicians had to make the choice between more control and more people and their treaties (supposedly the constitution of Europe. heh), they chose for more control every single time. So Spain will be forgiven, and everybody will squint until Spain is allowed to stay. But Spain will obviously object to Catalunya staying in the EU. And if Catalunya separates, or even tries to and manages to make Spain look bad enough, many bridges might break. Belgium, the Flemish region versus Wallonia (in that one, Europe might lose it's capital). Scotland who might want to shortcut Brexit. Meanwhile, this will strengthen separatist movements in other countries (Italy, France, ... and those mostly want to leave Europe).

Therefore a LOT of things could break very badly if Catalunya separates and Europe is vehemently against, but they can't come out and state as much. The only government even a little bit willing to come out and show some support is the Belgian NVA, which is sort-of a separatist movement itself. The big question is what they'll do next.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#73
post #46

I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.

Different political opinions aren't fake news. There are real people in Catalonia trying to submit ballots. In some places there are Spanish police trying to stop them.

I agree with that, I don't agree with BBC quoting "hundreds injured" without a reliable source.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#74
post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence.

States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that.

So the parent's question still standards. If the referendum is illegal, why does the national government bother at all? It can ignore the referendum.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#75
post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

Not sure what your anecdotal story was supposed to prove, but marijuana is legal for personal use in Spain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Spain

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#76
post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#77
post #57

Once again I think Canada has set an example for the world with how to do this properly: permit open and peaceful votes on secession (e.g. of Quebec), treat the issue as something to be resolved politically and not with the use of force, and pass legislation to deal with the matter that: - mandates that the secession question on the ballot be clear and unambiguous; - requires a clear majority to be considered valid;…

I believe the problem is Quebec has a poor economy and figured to lose out economically and in subsequent trade deals if they became independent. Catalonia on the other hand is ~20% of Spain's economy and ~15% of the population so on the national level there is an interest in keeping Catalonia as part of Spain against the wishes of the Catalan population. Canada has leverage if Quebec wishes to secede, Spain doesn't have leverage with Catalonia.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#78
post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#79
post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

I wonder if it's a (failed, obviously) attempt to control the optics. As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence. So if the vote proceeds, the Spanish government will be struggling to explain the result as being likely not re…

Of course it is a very failed-state-like attempt at controlling optics on both sides: Spain PM and ruling party is marred with corruption cases and independentists parties have been failing to take Catalonia out of recession. Both sides have interest in the current controversy. I'm not minimising the will of some (even many or even majority) of Catalans, or even the will of Spain to keep its integrity through democratic means, but the current escalation everything to do with manipulation by self-interest ed parties.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#80
post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

I wonder if it's a (failed, obviously) attempt to control the optics. As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence. So if the vote proceeds, the Spanish government will be struggling to explain the result as being likely not re…

>As I understand it, polls show a slim majority of Catalan residents actually oppose independence, but people likely to put in the effort and/or take the risk of voting in an illegal referendum will of course skew in favor of independence.

I was under the impression that the pro-stay leaders were encouraging their supporters to stay home to de-legitimize the vote.

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