This appears to be one of those cases where the government is going against its own people. I guess it is up to the people to make sure their voice is heard and to replace a government that does not serve them.
Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
41–50 of 254 posts
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've seen no evidence of violent people attacking police. Edit: well that is evidence - not a huge surprise that things have now escalated when you have an armed force shutting down an election.
I am uploading it so you can see it. (Nice downvote before letting me prove my words :) )
I am not excusing neither of the behaviors: both violents and not professional policemen are doing wrong. All your text is based not in what I said, but in yours interpretations of my words
I am adding references for the women issue too.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…
Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union. The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain has always defended that this right to self…
But the truth is self-determination is for nations and colonies.
In this case, the right for self-determination is for Spain, not for a part of Spain.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#44I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.
The BBC, though in lamentable shape in many ways, is not usually considered a Fake news source. Do you have any links to English language reports that are less biased from your standpoint?
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#45I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.
Surely there are many countries now in existence whose declaration of independence was considered illegal by the country they declared independence from.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#46I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.
Different political opinions aren't fake news. There are real people in Catalonia trying to submit ballots. In some places there are Spanish police trying to stop them.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#47I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.
The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation.
If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#48Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.
I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…
How do you think countries are created and absorbed? through legality and democratic negotiation?
Power and powerful allies is what matters.
In any case throwing the police against your country citizens (which are the powerless), just seems the worst possible strategy.
How many people changed their minds today to a pro united Spain stance?
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#49If this were happening in russia, the EU leaders would have loudly condemned the human rights violations. The silence from them now is shameful.
If this was happening in Russia, nobody would say nothing because there is nothing to say.
German police in the last G20 (Hamburg) was more violent, for example.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#50Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.
I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…
> The right to vote means nothing without liberal freedoms or without the indivisibility of the territory.
Woah now, that's an absolutely insane statement you just made. Actually, it's two absolutely insane statements.
There is nothing that says you have to have one particular set of rights before it counts as "democracy". The EU goes nowhere near as far as the US on some "liberal freedoms" (try supporting the Nazi Party in Germany and see where it gets you - being the most obvious example). They go much farther than the US does on some other ones. Which one of us is not a democracy in this situation?
Also, there's nothing that says a territory must necessarily be indivisible. Scotland independence, Puerto Rico independence (or statehood), and Catalan independence are all perennial issues. Hell, we literally just had the whole Brexit vote a year ago. There is no reason that any particular unit of government has a self-evident right to exist. They exist to serve their people! And in fact it would probably be better if we rearranged them more often - the US states are very unbalanced in many respects and it might be better if we rearranged them into equal populations and geographies that made a little more sense (this will never happen of course).
Legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed, and nothing else. If it doesn't work, there should absolutely be a right to dissolve it and reform another government. Or in other words: "when in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another..."