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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#161

Post by oneeyedpigeon »

breischl wrote: post #122
notspanishflu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part you don't understand? I'll try again. All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.

That is not clearer, at least to me. >All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards. This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?

They're saying, I think, that if you're going to have a referendum on independence, ever citizen of the existing state should vote, not just members of the proposed state. Otherwise, you could just have thousands of tiny groups of people each declaring their own independent state.

As a UK citizen, I would have preferred it if our recent referendum had been voted on by all members of the EU, rather than just British citizens.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#162

Post by wilun »

faragon wrote: post #92
olegkikin wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're correct, but that wasn't my point. Just because something is legal / illegal, doesn't automatically make it right or good / wrong or bad. I think they are trying to determine how the population is split by the voting. If it's a large enough population that doesn't want to live under the Spanish rule, they shouldn't. And if there's a minority that does want to live under the Spanish rule, they still can, just m…

The problem is far worse: 1) The Court gave orders to the regional police. 2) The regional police IGNORED the orders for a week (there are videos proving that). 3) The Court, after the innactivity of the regional police, asked the "inter-state" police ("Policia Nacional" and "Guardia Civil", that are polices that operate in Spain at global level) to do the work the regional police ignored to do (they pretended doing…

LMFTFY: now, the world have the photo of violent Spanish police repressing idealist people just voting.

(I'm still looking for how to make fit the local police not doing its job in the story of those violence... maybe there is a rational justification using facts unknown to me; like the central government only employing unstable violent people for their police forces, who have been rejected by local ones?)

Unless you consider the "work" of police is to beat the local population especially when they have their hands up.

I completely understand the narrative you gave for what happened before all that shit and agree with its factual aspects, but it does not magically provides quotes for clearly documented behaviors. People justifying violence by politics are, IMO, the most dangerous. It is inadmissible to sound like a local police force ignoring court order justify central police violence against a population.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#163

Post by kiliancs »

fcanela wrote: post #62
adambyrtek wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is from BBC which is generally considered a reliable source. Even if the referendum is illegal, it doesn't justify violence against peaceful protesters.

The number of injured have been reported by the Catalan officials, which benefits from enlarge the amount. Maybe the number is true. I will remain skeptic until information from several sources is provided.

Just the amount of people I have seen injured just in the videos being shared easily reaches the hundred. To be honest, even one case is not acceptable.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#164

Post by dgut »

kristiandupont wrote: post #102
dgut wrote: post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

>They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here. Seriously?! They're not nerf guns, the mossos were banned from using them a couple of years ago, with good reason! I am a fellow Scandinavian who lived in Barcelona and though I am not at all sure that I think independence is a good idea, I think the catalans should be the ones to decide th…

It's proportional. What are they supposed to use, water balloons?

The naive support for Catalonian nationalists on this site is not surprising, though.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#165

Post by occultist_throw »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #153
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

Sure. But they had better come up with a currency, nation/state political system in which others can adhere to, tax system, military, and all other things that nation-states do.

I dont think a "town", regardless of their richness, would be able to handle that.

Now, I could see the eastern seabed, with the bounds of the Appalachian mountains as a "country". I could also see the northern and southern areas between the 2 mountain ranges being their own countries as well. But not a "town".

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#166

Post by dgut »

msh wrote: post #65
dgut wrote: post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

So Norway should have remained a part of Sweden and not allowed to gain independence?

As mentioned before, completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not, and the foundations a lot shakier.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#167

Post by ghaff »

throwaway76543 wrote: post #153
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

Atherton, California is a well-defined region with a rather fabulous level of wealth. Are you suggesting that the town of Atherton ought to be able to vote for independence, in order to avoid paying state and federal taxes? May any geographically delineated group opt out of the local government structure? Surely you can see the flaw in your line of reasoning.

Only somewhat facetiously, sure. Why not? Though I expect that Atherton won't be as fabulously wealthy once its residents can't get visas to work in the United States or maybe even visit. It might also be tough if they lose access to electricity and water they need.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#168

Post by gjjrfcbugxbhf »

dgut wrote: post #143
gjjrfcbugxbhf wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.

That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.

Hence the Catalan's are attempting democratic means...

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#169

Post by richardwhiuk »

notspanishflu wrote: post #129
dguaraglia wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm kind of confused by this statement: so you are saying that Catalonia taking a referendum on what they themselves want to do, is imposing on all Spanish people, but Madrid commanding the repression is not imposing? I don't want to start a flamewar, but that looks like a bias you might want to reflect on.

My statement is in the Spanish Constitution, I don't know why you're confused.

The relevance of that being?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#170

Post by kiliancs »

faragon wrote: post #123
johnchristopher wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does Spain gain from using violence ? Can't they just ignore the results on the basis it's illegal ?

"Spain"? The police is acting after a Court order from Barcelona (main city of the Catalan region), not from the central Spanish Government. Edit: I can not reply to more comments, as it seems I have a limit of 5 comments per day. "Thanks", Hacker News. To the reply to this comment, I would reply that Courts have to apply the Law. I.e. it is not "optional", so if a Court sends the police to stop an illegal action, it…

The fact that the court order comes from Barcelona is irrelevant as that court and judge:

1. Are hierarchically under the Spanish judiciary

2. They are ordering these actions (not including violence BTW) based on the automatic suspension of the referendum (there's no ruling) from a tribunal in Madrid

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