Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 254 posts

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#121

Post by dguaraglia »

notspanishflu wrote: post #104
alanfranzoni wrote: post #94

The referendum is illegal. Let them vote, then ignore the vote. What's the point in blocking it?

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

I'm kind of confused by this statement: so you are saying that Catalonia taking a referendum on what they themselves want to do, is imposing on all Spanish people, but Madrid commanding the repression is not imposing?

I don't want to start a flamewar, but that looks like a bias you might want to reflect on.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#122

Post by breischl »

notspanishflu wrote: post #116
techas wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I don't follow your idea. Could you explain?

What part you don't understand? I'll try again. All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.

That is not clearer, at least to me.

>All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.

This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#123

Post by faragon »

johnchristopher wrote: post #111
faragon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course there are injured people, including policemen. If you start a revolt, you can expect problems. What do you expect, peaceful anarchy? Police is acting after a Court order, ensuring the rule of law.

What does Spain gain from using violence ? Can't they just ignore the results on the basis it's illegal ?

"Spain"? The police is acting after a Court order from Barcelona (main city of the Catalan region), not from the central Spanish Government.

Edit: I can not reply to more comments, as it seems I have a limit of 5 comments per day. "Thanks", Hacker News. To the reply to this comment, I would reply that Courts have to apply the Law. I.e. it is not "optional", so if a Court sends the police to stop an illegal action, it is not arbitrary, but a duty. In Spain Courts and Goverments are separated, i.e. the Court is not acting because of central Government orders.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#124

Post by lllllll »

techas wrote: post #99
notspanishflu wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

Why? I don't follow your idea. Could you explain?

Yes, it's hard to follow the logic. But still a lot of people seem to think that all Spain should vote on a referendum on whether Catalonia should be independent. Go figure.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#125

Post by severino »

marindez wrote: post #90
MrPatan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

>PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. That's a really miserable thing to say.

It's sad but true. People's Party has been using our terrorist problems to attack other parties when they were the opposition. They feel very comfortable with everybody talking about nothing but Catalonia or the Basque Country.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#126

Post by Aaargh20318 »

polack wrote: post #83
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...

> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government.

Did they now ?

Let's say Russia is having an election and the people in Crimea are allowed to vote. Let's assume the majority of Russians voted for Putin but hardly any of the people in Crimea did. Did Russia suddenly become the legitimate government of Crimea just because 'the people voted for it' ?

I think the first step would be for the people to agree to have an election over who governs them first.

AFAIK Catalonia didn't voluntarily join Spain, they got annexed.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#127

Post by notspanishflu »

alkonaut wrote: post #113
627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

I think this is about establishing that Catalonia doesn't want to be part of Spain on the current terms. If that's establish in a referendum (of any form) then they will have leverage to renegotiate their relation with Spain (much like Scotland). Spain has a lot to lose from that since Catalonia is an economic giant within Spain. So even violent quenching has better optics than allowing the referendum.

This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England.

Catalonia was a economical power but not anymore, all Spaniards are sustaining that region using the FLA (Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica or Autonomous Liquidity Fund).

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#128

Post by wav-part »

unixhero wrote: post #101
wav-part wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fairism is not something you build a stable society with. The individual (usually wealthy) vs majority was the canary.

I've never understood the word canary. What do you mean with it, in this context?

> I've never understood the word canary.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/canary_in_a_coal_mine

> What do you mean with it, in this context?

The pouplar reason given for the anti-success taxation, is that its fair. Because they agreed to the social contract. But its highly disputed by those taxpayers. Such disputes are canary/early-signs of fair/subjective contracts. Catalonians vs Spaniards is the other.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#129

Post by notspanishflu »

dguaraglia wrote: post #121
notspanishflu wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

I'm kind of confused by this statement: so you are saying that Catalonia taking a referendum on what they themselves want to do, is imposing on all Spanish people, but Madrid commanding the repression is not imposing? I don't want to start a flamewar, but that looks like a bias you might want to reflect on.

My statement is in the Spanish Constitution, I don't know why you're confused.
Post reply on HN