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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#61

Post by dgut »

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either.

This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't going to split and we aren't going to allow tribalists/nationalists to act freely.

They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here.

Having lived in Spain for some time, I can say police there is awesome. That is, friendly and laid back. Once I was caught smoking marijuana in my apartment (the neighbors called the police because of the loud music) and they made a couple of jokes and left. Back in Norway, they'd be angry & taken me to the police station.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#62

Post by fcanela »

adambyrtek wrote: post #35
faragon wrote: post #28

The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian "hackers" are helping the rebels [2]. [1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51... [2] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...

This is from BBC which is generally considered a reliable source. Even if the referendum is illegal, it doesn't justify violence against peaceful protesters.

The number of injured have been reported by the Catalan officials, which benefits from enlarge the amount. Maybe the number is true. I will remain skeptic until information from several sources is provided.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#63

Post by sbmassey »

notspanishflu wrote: post #43
kiliancs wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union. The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain has always defended that this right to self…

But the truth is self-determination is for nations and colonies. In this case, the right for self-determination is for Spain, not for a part of Spain.

I suppose the Spanish government didn't do a good enough job of convincing the Catalonian people that they are part of Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#64

Post by faragon »

olegkikin wrote: post #52
627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

US slavery was legal, and it took a civil war to change that. The right of people to self-determination is actually a quite important concept in the international law. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination

The US made a war against separatists, in order to ensure the civil rights: the losers wanted a self-determination involving the "right" of slavery. So "self-determination" for evil/egoistic/xenophobic causes is not reasonable at all.

In Catalan region the population is split in two. It is not a "revolution against the central government", but for the power inside the region.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#65

Post by msh »

dgut wrote: post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

So Norway should have remained a part of Sweden and not allowed to gain independence?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#66

Post by notspanishflu »

sbmassey wrote: post #44
notspanishflu wrote: post #34

I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.

The BBC, though in lamentable shape in many ways, is not usually considered a Fake news source. Do you have any links to English language reports that are less biased from your standpoint?

The only source for BBC quoting "hundreds injured" is what secessionists say, they don't contrast that number.

There was a change in BBC news after Brexit, trying to weaken the common European position.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#67

Post by notspanishflu »

empath75 wrote: post #54
notspanishflu wrote: post #34

I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.

BBC is fake news?

The only source for BBC quoting "hundreds injured" is what secessionists say, they don't contrast that number.

There was a change in BBC news after Brexit, trying to weaken the common European position.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#68

Post by walshemj »

pjc50 wrote: post #40
notspanishflu wrote: post #34

I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.

The events are actually happening are they not? Please can we distinguish between "I don't agree with the politics expressed here" and "the reporting describes events which didn't happen, or misdescribes events that did"?

Its also been boycotted by the opposition and was rushed through using dubious mesures by the ruling party

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#69

Post by wolfgke »

faragon wrote: post #28

The European Union sides with the Spanish Constitution, supporting the rule of law, against the regional nationalist revolt [1]. Also, it seems that Russian "hackers" are helping the rebels [2]. [1] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/15/inenglish/1505463613_51... [2] https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/09/28/inenglish/1506588970_02...

Without very good reasons it is my maxim to prefer to sympathize with the side that applied no/much less violence (which can be the side of the law, but can also be the other side).

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#70

Post by notspanishflu »

pjc50 wrote: post #40
notspanishflu wrote: post #34

I usually see HNers stand against fake news, and post-truth, but here I am watching secessionists brigading Hacker News scot-free.

The events are actually happening are they not? Please can we distinguish between "I don't agree with the politics expressed here" and "the reporting describes events which didn't happen, or misdescribes events that did"?

I'm repeating myself but...

The only source for BBC quoting "hundreds injured" is what secessionists say, they don't contrast that number.

There was a change in BBC news after Brexit, trying to weaken the common European position.

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