Earlier quoted context omitted.
>PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. That's a really miserable thing to say.
> miserable Very interesting word choice.
Let them eat coca de sucre!
Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
141–150 of 254 posts
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#142The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…
> there wouldn't be much left of Europe
Only if you believe "Europe" = "nation states" or an EU super state.
Independence for smaller states - ie, taking back control and power from a greater/globalist state - would, if anything, make Europe (people and culture) more European again.
> They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here.
So people are wrong to suggest the maiming and potential killing of civilians by police is a crime against humanity, but it's reasonable for you to claim the police are "awesome" based on a couple of them sharing a joke with you once, when you were high?
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#143The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…
Both the creation of the Norwegian Constitution and Norwegian independence were illegal when they happened.
That was eons ago under completely different circumstances. Spain is a democracy, Norway-Sweden was not.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#144Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…
The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.
> If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole
Let's boil it down to the basics: an election decides who is going to be leader of a group of people. For that leader to be legitimate every member has to voluntarily decide they want to be part of the group and thus the election.
The problem here is not that Catalonia doesn't accept the government because they didn't like who won the elections. The problem here is that they never agreed to even be part of those elections.
If we have a group of 10 people who decide to democratically pick a leader, and the majority chooses Steve. That's fine. What is not fine is taking 2 random people of the street and tell them they have to now do what Steve tells them because he was voted leader 10 against 2. They never agreed to take part in the election and respect its results.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#145Earlier quoted context omitted.
The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.
> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.
If you allow any region to declare independence then there will be thousands or maybe even more states. Different provinces and regions are united into a country because this way they have more military power to defend themselves. When there is a lot of small states it will be easy to conquer them one by one - either by external enemy or by one of those small states. At least this is what happened in the Middle Age.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#146The referendum is illegal. Let them vote, then ignore the vote. What's the point in blocking it?
The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens. If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.
That doesn't seem to address the point made in the comment you are responding too - if the referendum is illegal, then why not just make the point that it is illegal clear, and ignore the result, rather than attempting to shut it down violently?
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#147Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think this is about establishing that Catalonia doesn't want to be part of Spain on the current terms. If that's establish in a referendum (of any form) then they will have leverage to renegotiate their relation with Spain (much like Scotland). Spain has a lot to lose from that since Catalonia is an economic giant within Spain. So even violent quenching has better optics than allowing the referendum.
This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. Catalonia was a economical power but not anymore, all Spaniards are sustaining that region using the FLA (Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica or Autonomous Liquidity Fund).
There's substantial bi-directional traffic between the Catalan and Scottish independence movements.
Also, Manchester doesn't have its own language which the central government tried to suppress.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#148I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.
The Spanish government seems to be in a lose-lose situation. If they don't stop the referendum, positive results will be used to further the independence movement. If they do try to stop it, the videos we're watching will be used to further the independence movement.
There is a possible ‘win’ - if a clear & open referendum is held, and the results do not give independence a clear mandate.
Both the lose-lose paths - and the government’s current actions - seem to presume independence would win that mandate in a fair vote. This was never presumed until the government started acting like it was.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#149Earlier quoted context omitted.
> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...
> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Did they now ? Let's say Russia is having an election and the people in Crimea are allowed to vote. Let's assume the majority of Russians voted for Putin but hardly any of the people in Crimea did. Did Russia suddenly become the legitimate government of Crimea just because 'the people voted for it' ? I think the first step would be for the people to agree t…
> Catalonia didn't voluntarily join Spain, they got annexed.
This is how most countries were formed in the Middle Ages. You either are big enough to defend yourself or become a part of big enough country.
Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes
#150Earlier quoted context omitted.
> The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was e…
Are you arguing that you are not bound by any laws enacted before you could vote?
No, I'm arguing that I should have a choice wether to be a member of a society and as a result get all the benefits thereof and be subject to that society's laws, or not.
It's a package deal. I either join the club, benefit from being a member, and have to play by the clubs rules or I don't.