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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#101

Post by unixhero »

wav-part wrote: post #8
lifeisstillgood wrote: post #2

Someone made a point recently that the past 50 years really have been a golden age of democracy (possibly the only 50 in history) That during the 19C there was much more semi-democracy with strong authoritarian governments in Europe, cracking down on what we would call democracy (1816,1848 etc) The point was that it is fairly easy to slip back.

Fairism is not something you build a stable society with. The individual (usually wealthy) vs majority was the canary.

I've never understood the word canary.

What do you mean with it, in this context?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#102

Post by kristiandupont »

dgut wrote: post #61

The referendum was ruled illegal by the courts. If we are going to allow all old tribes of Europe to become their own state, there wouldn't be much left of Europe. The nation-state and standardization is a European invention and a successful one. The case for an independent Catalonia isn't on strong grounds either. This is no small issue, and Spain is responding accordingly. The message has to be clear: Spain isn't g…

>They are using rubber bullets to disperse the crowds, that's not exactly a crime against humanity as some seem to suggest here.

Seriously?! They're not nerf guns, the mossos were banned from using them a couple of years ago, with good reason!

I am a fellow Scandinavian who lived in Barcelona and though I am not at all sure that I think independence is a good idea, I think the catalans should be the ones to decide that and the Spanish reaction to the vote is absolutely outrageous to me. They could have declared it illegal, and the outcome invalid. This treatment of peaceful protesters is ridiculous.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#103

Post by throwawayknecht »

polack wrote: post #83
Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

> A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government. Democracy doesn't mean that you always get the way you want if the majority wants something else...

> Spain has chosen to be governed by the current government.

I mean, sort of yes, but also Catalonia was annexed within living memory.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#104

Post by notspanishflu »

alanfranzoni wrote: post #94

The referendum is illegal. Let them vote, then ignore the vote. What's the point in blocking it?

The sovereignty of Spain falls on all Spanish citizens.

If you allow a referendum on such topic in a part of Spain, it doesn't matter the result because you're accepting implicitly that a part of Spain can rule over the whole.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#105

Post by MrPatan »

notspanishflu wrote: post #97
MrPatan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

No doubt, you're a Patán. FYI there was a terrorist group in Catalonia called "Terra Lliure". Now the members of that group are promoting secession.

My point exactly. The PP are working on the "was" to get to "will be again".

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#106

Post by pipio21 »

627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Very simple. The idea was making the last normal elections an independence referendum, had independentist won. They lost.

So they decided they would fly forward. Most of them, like Mas and Puigdemont were friends or partners of Puyol, who actually manage to steal hundreds of millions of euros, probably thousands, they are going to jail anyway. They have nothing to lose and lots to win.

Puyol stole for 40 years without nobody in central Government doing anything, you could not do business there without paying to his family. He actually hired people from the Spanish secret services and got a lot of information back so central Government was scared of doing anything against him.

The plan was doing all this and after 48 hours unilaterally declare independence, because of the "Oppressive state".

For the independentists it is "now or never". Certainly is not easy to have someone as weak as Rajoy as prime minister.

For me as an Spaniard who works in center Europe who last week was in Catalunya is obvious who is using violence. It is not the police. There are people trowing stones to police, they are insulting and spitting to them, they are doing scratches to them.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#107

Post by lifeisstillgood »

paulmd wrote: post #50
bad_user wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel sorry for the injured in this Catalan referendum, but in my opinion this referendum has nothing to do with democracy. First of all a country's constitution is sacrosanct and that constitution not only gives the people their power to vote, but also says that the country's territory is indivisible . If the Catalan people want to change that, then the referendum should involve all of Spain's citizens, having as m…

> The right to vote means nothing without liberal freedoms or without the indivisibility of the territory. Woah now, that's an absolutely insane statement you just made. Actually, it's two absolutely insane statements. There is nothing that says you have to have one particular set of rights before it counts as "democracy". The EU goes nowhere near as far as the US on some "liberal freedoms" (try supporting the Nazi P…

>>> Legitimacy derives from the consent of the governed, and nothing else.

Fan-bloody-tastic

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#108

Post by notspanishflu »

sbmassey wrote: post #63
notspanishflu wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the truth is self-determination is for nations and colonies. In this case, the right for self-determination is for Spain, not for a part of Spain.

I suppose the Spanish government didn't do a good enough job of convincing the Catalonian people that they are part of Spain.

The majority of catalans don't want independence.

The political parties promoting independence represent less citizens than the political parties that want Catalonia to be part of Spain.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#109

Post by mcguire »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #84
ringaroundthetx wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. States in spain are incapable of declaring independence from the national government. This was a democratic process. A democratic process inside one state, just to get that state to say it is separate, doesn't change that. So the parent's question still s…

> The people of the democratic government democratically voted for the part of the Spanish Constitution that bars this kind of unilateral declaration of independence. Are you sure the same people who voted for that constitution are the ones doing the protesting ? I'm not sure about Spain, but I know for a fact that I didn't vote for the constitution of my country, in fact it was written about 160 years before I was e…

Are you arguing that you are not bound by any laws enacted before you could vote?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#110

Post by Zigurd »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #56
627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

> The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal How can they be illegal ? A democratic government derives it's legitimacy from the fact the people they govern choose to be governed by them. If the people obviously do not want this government, then isn't it the government that's obviously illegitimate ? 'The people' are the source of power, they just outsource it to a smaller group of peo…

The question that clarifies the matter is not whether something is illegal. You can craft language to make lots of things illegal, especially within a hierarchy of national and regional governments. The question is whether voting for independence is a crime. When you have to make voting a crime, and deploy police to prevent the population turning out to vote, it's a pretty good indicator you are on the wrong side of history.

This is probably not the the way the national government wanted their actions to be seen, nor is overwhelming popular disobedience the outcome they desired.

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