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Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#131

Post by severino »

notspanishflu wrote: post #97
MrPatan wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

No doubt, you're a Patán. FYI there was a terrorist group in Catalonia called "Terra Lliure". Now the members of that group are promoting secession.

So what? Members of the former Spanish totalitarian regime are now in politics too, and I think it's great they changed their minds to now respect the most basic human rights. Don't you?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#133

Post by breischl »

Aaargh20318 wrote: post #89
lurker456 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The majority in Spain doesn't want them to become independent. Democracy has this problem, it's called "the tyranny of the masses". There is no easy solution.

> There is no easy solution. Catalonia is a well-defined region, redefine the borders and be done with it. Seems easy enough. If these people don't want to be part of Spain anymore, why force them to stay ? There is no point to any of it.

>Catalonia is a well-defined region

That's not enough though. There are people who have tried to declare an independent country of their land, or their house, or their bedroom[1]. Clearly one person declaring their bedroom to be independent is silly and not allowable, but a large reason is. So somewhere there's a line, right?

[1] - http://www.atlasobscura.com/places/kingdom-of-talossa

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#134

Post by johnchristopher »

faragon wrote: post #123
johnchristopher wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does Spain gain from using violence ? Can't they just ignore the results on the basis it's illegal ?

"Spain"? The police is acting after a Court order from Barcelona (main city of the Catalan region), not from the central Spanish Government. Edit: I can not reply to more comments, as it seems I have a limit of 5 comments per day. "Thanks", Hacker News. To the reply to this comment, I would reply that Courts have to apply the Law. I.e. it is not "optional", so if a Court sends the police to stop an illegal action, it…

Thanks for the clarification. But what does Barcelona gain then ?

Can't they just ignore the results on the basis it's illegal ?

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#135

Post by notspanishflu »

breischl wrote: post #122
notspanishflu wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What part you don't understand? I'll try again. All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards.

That is not clearer, at least to me. >All Spaniards have voice & vote about sovereignty, not just a bunch of Spaniards. This seems self-contradictory. Mis-typed? Or perhaps you mean it's up to all Spaniards, not just some Spaniards?

All Spaniards have the right, not only a part of Spaniards (like those living in Catalonia).

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#136

Post by pipio21 »

MrPatan wrote: post #36
627467 wrote: post #19

I don't get the point of the violence used to stop the ref. The ref is illegal. The hypothetical declaration of independence is illegal, invalid and likely never accepted by anyone (not in Europe not in the world) why the use of violence to stop the ref game? This whole situation is senseless from both sides but it is obvious who is the side willing to use violence.

Because the PP, the party in power in Spain, will get political benefit out of conflict in Catalonia, the bloodiest the better. If by any chance a Catalan terrorist group appears, that's the next several elections sorted. PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. If you're thinking that's stupid and can backfire on them big time, well, I didn't say they were smart.

40 years ago Puyol used to say, first "paciencia" then "independencia".

Now that independentists are doing what they have repeated millions of times they were going to do, it is a problem of the PP???

Leave me guess: You are leftist, communist maybe? How do I know? because your visceral hate is so strong you can't think at all.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#137

Post by SuddsMcDuff »

NaliSauce wrote: post #4
droopyEyelids wrote: post #3

Example of the crackdown on voters. They seem completely nonviolent to me, even in the face of a disproportionate response. https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/914427797753430017 https://twitter.com/ZabMustefa/status/914406611375894528

It seems like even the local firefighters and police stepped in: https://twitter.com/wikileaks/status/914472762030379012 https://twitter.com/catalannews/status/914453409453023232 What a violent mess.

Watching this it's easy to see a clear path toward civil war.

If this continues, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the army step in & impose peace until such time as the situation can be resolved peacefully. I would bet good money that Spanish generals are dusting off old contingency plans as we speak.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#138

Post by Kathee_HDS »

MrPatan wrote: post #98
marindez wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>PP misses ETA, the Basque terrorist group. That's a really miserable thing to say.

> miserable Very interesting word choice.

It's a direct translation, miserable in spanish doesn't mean miserable in english, it means vile.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#139

Post by sbmassey »

notspanishflu wrote: post #127
alkonaut wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is about establishing that Catalonia doesn't want to be part of Spain on the current terms. If that's establish in a referendum (of any form) then they will have leverage to renegotiate their relation with Spain (much like Scotland). Spain has a lot to lose from that since Catalonia is an economic giant within Spain. So even violent quenching has better optics than allowing the referendum.

This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. Catalonia was a economical power but not anymore, all Spaniards are sustaining that region using the FLA (Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica or Autonomous Liquidity Fund).

Catalonia has it's own language though, whereas Mancunians may speak strangely, but it is still considered English.

Re: Catalan referendum: 'Hundreds injured' in Catalan clashes

#140

Post by throwawayknecht »

notspanishflu wrote: post #127
alkonaut wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is about establishing that Catalonia doesn't want to be part of Spain on the current terms. If that's establish in a referendum (of any form) then they will have leverage to renegotiate their relation with Spain (much like Scotland). Spain has a lot to lose from that since Catalonia is an economic giant within Spain. So even violent quenching has better optics than allowing the referendum.

This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England. Catalonia was a economical power but not anymore, all Spaniards are sustaining that region using the FLA (Fondo de Liquidez Autonómica or Autonomous Liquidity Fund).

> This is not like England and Scotland, is more like Manchester wanting to leave England.

In what way?

(Let's ignore for now the fact Manchester did have a semi-serious independence movement during the Scotland referendum, and no police were necessary.)

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