181–190 of 243 posts
Yep, the public salary of many presidents of a part of Spain is bigger than the president of the whole.
That's for give you a picture of the current craziness.
This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state. The people have the right to divorce and the state has the right to maintain its unity against all. It's like Spain is trying to push Catalonians to violence.
> This is a good example of the breakdown of the westphalian concept of nation-state. Your premise is contradictory. You're claiming that Catalonia trying to form its own nation-state is a proof that the nation-state is breaking down. The exact opposite is the case: the nation-state is so desirable that Catalonia wants to form its own.
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The Spanish constitution recognizes the right to self-determination inasmuch as it explicitly enshrines the international treaties that define it. Spain (executive and judiciary) is choosing to ignore that (unlike Canada, for example), and not letting Catalonia exercise that right in any way. According to polls 70%/80% of Catalans think a referendum about independence should take place. The current Catalan government…
The so-called "right to self-determination" doesn't exist in the Spanish Constitution, nor in the International Law, nor in Comparative Law. https://elpais.com/elpais/2014/10/10/opinion/1412946101_9911...
- Charter of the United Nations, Chapter 1 (Purposes and Principles), article 1.2: "To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace" [1]
- International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, article 1.1 (check out other points and article 2): All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development. [2]
- International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, article 1.1: [pretty much same text as International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights) [3]
- Spanish Constitution, part 1 (Fundamental Rights and Duties), Section 10.2: "Provisions relating to the fundamental rights and liberties recognized by the Constitution shall be construed in conformity with the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and international treaties and agreements thereon ratified by Spain." [4]
Though you only had to check Wikipedia: "The right of people to self-determination is a cardinal principle in modern international law (commonly regarded as a jus cogens rule)" [5]
[1] http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charter/chapter-i/index.htm...
[2] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CESCR.asp...
[3] http://www.ohchr.org/EN/ProfessionalInterest/Pages/CCPR.aspx
[4] http://www.lamoncloa.gob.es/lang/en/espana/leyfundamental/Pa...
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The country that looks most likely to split (in Europe) to me is Belgium, not Spain. But then predicting geopolitical changes is the same as predicting Black Swans: the Berlin wall will stand forever right until the moment it wont; The Soviet Union is just there until it is no more; nothing can stand the Nazi war machine; those scrappy colonists have no chance against the English empire.
Really? My take is that Flemings and Walloons don't really understand each other but are happy staying in their own half of the country. Who would get Brussels in a split?
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However, freedom of speech is an inalienable human right (and in need of most protection when it's political speech) - so regardless of whether you think that government's power derives from the people, they should be allowed to talk about the referendum.
Everybody can speak about the referendum in Spain. You can't say there isn't freedom of speech in Spain when even people convicted for terrorism speaks in public media everyday.
Spanish authorities asked the registry to block domain names that were being used to spread information about an upcoming referendum for independence.
I can understand why the opposition would be pretty pissed off about that infringement on their free speech rights.
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Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what…
Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.
Freedom is Slavery,
Ignorance is Strength,
Trying to organize a Referendum is Antidemocratic.
Catalan institutions have been raided, Catalan members of the government have been arrested, and their crime is to work towards allowing Catalans vote about their future.
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"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves" The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal…
What do you mean? in the scottish referendum only scots voted, not all brits. Are you saying that all spaniards (not only those living in Catalonia) should vote in the referendum? I don't see how this makes any sense.
New York people can't wake up some day, like a single man, and decide that Texans (or Floridians, or afroamericans), can not enter in the state anymore, their basic rights are expired and they have 48 hours to quit the place leaving its properties behind. Some people would point to the fair "self-determination right" from Newyorkers. Some even would shamelesly call this situation democracy, but it isn't. Would be a huge scam. NY are only a small part of the people that are USA citizens, and the other people have the f*ing right to express their opinion about that. No matter how peculiar, colorful, or different than other places is the city.
In the same way Barcelona can not wake up some day and decide that people from Sevilla aren't allowed anymore to decide about the future of Barcelona and must quit the place. Unless of course we would aim to happily nuke the basic rights of 39 millions of citizen that are non-catalonian spaniards (to improve the chances for the 1-2 million of people than want Catalonia out of Spain). Is also a scam. Is a riged game. Democracy is the rule of the majority, and this constant actitude of I'm holier than thou so I must be allowed to speak but you can't is incredibly upsetting.
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> In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence Do you have sources, because the last I know is from El Periodico (against independence) and the amount of people supporting a referendum was almost 80%
I follow the numbers closely... it’s always coming from CIS. It seems to have risin after the attacks. http://www.elmundo.es/cataluna/2017/07/21/5971c7f7468aebd53d...
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The problem here is not the secession, it is the right to vote. I'm Catalan, I'm against the independence, one reason is because I don't give a shit about being Spanish or Catalan, another is because the politicians here are exactly equally corrupts than the Spanish ones and economics ones. But what I want is the right to have a referendum and vote no. Funny thing is that if the entral government wanted to destroy th…
Sure. Just a coincidence that kind of speech 'we just want to vote', 'I'm going to say no but want to vote in this illegal referendum', I only hear it from secessionists.
Listen, there is more than the present status quo or independence, there a people that want less descentralization, there is people that want a federal state and there is people that wants a confederal state.
And a fucking lot of people support that others can decide want they want to be and, at the same time, doesn't agree whit their views.
I think people like you, that see this situation in balck and white and think that anyone that doesn't see like you is an independentist are part of the problem, no of the solution.