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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#121

Post by Oletros »

notspanishflu wrote: post #110
iagooar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what…

There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution. What people can't do is play outside the Law in a Democracy.

> There's a legal way to change the Spanish Constitution.

Changing how when the two main parties are against this change?

That argument is just an excuse.

Articles of the Estatut d'Autonomia where denunced by present the ruling part declared invalid by the TC but that same party wrote carbon copies of them in other Estatutes it say how the situation can change.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#122

Post by notspanishflu »

tomjen3 wrote: post #35
pfortuny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

Oh it probably violates the constitution - but the right thing to do is to either let it slide or admend it. The law is supposed to serve the people, right now Spain is just using it as a bully platform.

No, if someone wants to change the Spanish Constitution, there's a legal way to do it.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#123

Post by elros »

nsnick wrote: post #60
descala wrote: post #48

This is an example of a seized web site http://ref1oct.cat/ it had information about the poll. The JS in the source is really sad, one of the options click baits you to an Spanish sports newspaper.

Wow the coat of arms of the Spanish government still has a fasces on it? You learn something every day.

Spain has been an actual fascist state, so historically this is unrelated, but you may find it interesting to know that it's also present quite prominently at the US Congress[0] as well as in the US Senate's seal[1].

[0] http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/imagenes_sociopol/icke110_...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Sena...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#124

Post by oriol16 »

tobltobs wrote: post #93

Under the assumption that for the next 10-20 years Catalonia wouldn't be allowed to join the EU, could someone of the pro separate group explain how a independent state of Catalonia is supposed to survive?

Ask UK. There are 10 countries as many outside in EU as inside. I am pro EU, but if this has to be in the way of a more important and noble interest, then we stay out.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#125

Post by codefined »

jimmaswell wrote: post #97
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

>At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves This isn't really true. You can get arrested for "offensive" social media posts in the UK.

Never heard of a case where someone has been arrested for saying anything that isn't aimed at causing vioelnce. The UK government _do_ allow a lot of open debate on political topics (and every other type of topic) as long as it doesn't threaten peoples health.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#126

Post by bonzini »

RobertoG wrote: post #61
bonzini wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of the precedent, presumably. If it is not allowed by the Spanish Constitution, what will be the next part of the Constitution that will be ignored?

So, following that view, in the hypothetical case that the 100% of the people of one region wanted the independence, they should just be quiet because it's in the constitution of the 'federal' government? Just trying to follow your reasoning.

In that case the federal government should consider amending the Constitution, or something like that. Which isn't necessarily that simple.

For example, the wide majority that is needed for constitutional changes would require agreement at the federal level even beyond parties that are part of the government. Also, some constitutions have provisions that are explicitly listed as un-amendable.

In the case of Catalunya there are other issues. For example, admission to the EU of Catalunya would probably be vetoed by Spain and by almost any other country that has regions with strong separatist movements (e.g. Spain would have vetoed the admission of Scotland, had the Scottish referendum passed). This would be a big unknown for Catalan economy.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#127

Post by [deleted] »

627467 wrote: post #15
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Playing devils advocate: Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s. It's the constitution which prevents the referendum from happening. (I believe for a referendum to be constitutional, Spain's "federal" parliament would have to agree to it and the whole country would have to vote). Personally I feel this whole comparison between the 2 situations highlights the cultural differences: conse…

[deleted]

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#128

Post by Oletros »

tobltobs wrote: post #93

Under the assumption that for the next 10-20 years Catalonia wouldn't be allowed to join the EU, could someone of the pro separate group explain how a independent state of Catalonia is supposed to survive?

The problem here is not the secession, it is the right to vote.

I'm Catalan, I'm against the independence, one reason is because I don't give a shit about being Spanish or Catalan, another is because the politicians here are exactly equally corrupts than the Spanish ones and economics ones.

But what I want is the right to have a referendum and vote no.

Funny thing is that if the entral government wanted to destroy the independist movement they could have modified the Constitution and allow that consult, the majority here is against the independence.

What a majority wants here is the right to vote

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#129

Post by farresito »

notspanishflu wrote: post #114
farresito wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Spanish constitution is violating one of the basic rights: the right of self-determination. To me, right now, it doesn't matter what the constitution says. We will ignore it. The constitution won't be changed because it's in their interest to not change.

Basic right for whom? Are you talking basic human right? A random bunch of people right? Who? When defining a right, you must show who is the subject of that right.

I'm not completely sure what you are trying to say, but this is what I'm referring to: http://www.unpo.org/article/4957

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#130

Post by notspanishflu »

icebraining wrote: post #118
gfiorav wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What forces are you talking about? The fascist killed Spaniards from all Spain, not only Catalonia. In any case, the republic was outspokenly against the Catalan independence. Azaña was quoted to write in a letter “before alllwing for an independent Catalonia, I’ll give it to Franco”. Please don’t revise history, is the most fascist thing you can do. The problem with the referendum results is that they can’t be accur…

Azaña said many things: "Si en algún momento dominara en Cataluña otra voluntad y resolviera remar sola en su navío, sería justo permitirlo y nuestro deber consistiría en dejaros en paz, y si esto sucediera os desearíamos buena suerte hasta que cicatrizara la herida"

Please, tell the whole story.

Yes, Azaña said those words in March, 27, 1930, in the Restaurant Patria (Barcelona) but soon he learned about his error, and the grave consequences of that speech.

In May, 1937, Azaña wrote in his diary: "las muchas y muy enormes y escandalosas [...] pruebas de insolidaridad y despego, de hostilidad, de 'chantajismo' que la política catalana ha dado frente al gobierno de la República".

And then he added: "Y si esas gentes van a descuartizar a España, prefiero a Franco. Con Franco ya nos entenderíamos nosotros, o nuestros hijos, o quien fuere, pero estos hombres son inaguantables. Acabarían por dar la razón a Franco".

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