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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#61

Post by RobertoG »

bonzini wrote: post #44
dazc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence." So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?

Because of the precedent, presumably. If it is not allowed by the Spanish Constitution, what will be the next part of the Constitution that will be ignored?

So, following that view, in the hypothetical case that the 100% of the people of one region wanted the independence, they should just be quiet because it's in the constitution of the 'federal' government?

Just trying to follow your reasoning.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#62

Post by rdiddly »

iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

It's been 80 years since the Spanish Civil War, yet I can't help but wonder whether its influence is being felt today with BS maneuvers like this. What would Spain be like today if Franco hadn't been helped into power in the 30s by (among other infamous parties who shall remain nameless) Ford Motors, General Motors, and the Catholic Church?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#64

Post by gfiorav »

balance_factor wrote: post #49
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> the "oppressed" Sure, how are they oppressed? In 1938 Barcelona was bombed because the army wanted to destroy the republic and what existed of Catalonia autonomy. So any existing Catalonia autonomy or democracy of any form was crushed in 1939, replaced by a military dictatorship, and only started to recover in 1977-1978. The Spanish dictatorship killed thousands of Catalans after the 1939 takeover. The same forces…

What forces are you talking about? The fascist killed Spaniards from all Spain, not only Catalonia. In any case, the republic was outspokenly against the Catalan independence. Azaña was quoted to write in a letter “before alllwing for an independent Catalonia, I’ll give it to Franco”. Please don’t revise history, is the most fascist thing you can do.

The problem with the referendum results is that they can’t be accurate. They’re asking people to bring the ballots printed at home, and there’s no accurate census. No observers either. Not that the Catalonian government cares, of course.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#65

Post by tryingagainbro »

Markoff wrote: post #22
tryingagainbro wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.

what about Ukraine? laat time I checked they were invaded by Russia, not much to do with some free will of local citizens through some official referendum

I am 300% sure that some Ukrainian regions want to become "independent," or part of Russia. http://edition.cnn.com/2014/05/12/world/europe/ukraine-crisi... In fact, Russia is "protecting their rights" not invading Ukraine or something like that.

Once again, if 100% of your human rights can be exercised with broad autonomy, no sane country will support your independence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_active_separatist_move...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#66

Post by gfiorav »

nsnick wrote: post #50
gfiorav wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?

If by "stops obeying the constitution" you mean "holds a referendum" I would be fine with it. What I am not ok with is a central government rounding people up because they want to hold an election.

Sure but now you’re deciding what parts of the constitution you obey and which ones you don’t. That just doesn’t scale.

If you want to modify the constitution you need 2/3 of the senate. There’s a procedure for that. There no excuse to break the constitution. If you think there is, you had no argument to defend your own constitutional rights.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#67

Post by egloeda »

tbatchelli wrote: post #23
pfortuny wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy…

"That constitution was written and signed under Military watch."

You're just lying.

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refer%C3%A9ndum_para_la_ratifi...

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#68

Post by mcdevilkiller »

iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves"

The problem here in Spain/Catalonia is that Catalonian politicians only want Catalonians to vote. I feel that, being a Spanish citizen of legal age, I have the same right to vote on whether I want a part of my country to separate from it. But they won't let us vote, so, why should "we" let them vote? (Also, as per the constitution, it is illegal)

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#69

Post by dazc »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #51
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake." That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped. The fact that i…

What was this 'middle way' option? Scotland already has its own Parliament, legislation and such. I always thought they were already in a 'middle way'?

I'm not trying to be provocative, just trying to understand what else could Scotland get without going full-on independent?

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#70

Post by monodeldiablo »

gfiorav wrote: post #42
nsnick wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can also debate whether the response of the Spanish government is out of line. Nothing will bring about Catalan independence faster than heavy handed repression by the Spanish government.

My point is: How would you react if a regional government (which represent 30-40% of the people there) in your country stops obeying the constitution? Would you not stop the privacy infringement that is using census data ilegally? Would you not protect the 60-70% who didn’t vote the ruling party?

If 30-40% of the people want to leave your country, you have a problem. Hiding behind legal strictures made 40 years ago ignores the core issue entirely.

The proper thing for the Spanish government to do is to sit down with the Catalans and engage in meaningful dialogue. Not kick in doors and jail people for participating in a non-binding referendum.

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