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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#51

Post by ZeroGravitas »

iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake."

That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped.

The fact that it came so close us a testament to how badly they played their hand.

See also Brexit.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#52

Post by mabbo »

plehoux wrote: post #9

I'm amazed by how the Spanish government manages all of this. Haven't they study independence movements in Canada and the U.K.? The only reason Quebec is not a country is that the Canadian government kept a 'somewhat' cool head during the two referendums. Breaking Point is a damn good CBC documentary about the Quebec referendum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y

We had something like 200,000 people come to Montreal to "protest" in a unity march: "Please don't leave. Please stay in Canada".

I didn't see that sort of thing during the Scottish referendum, and I sure don't see it in Catalan.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#53

Post by rbanffy »

iagooar wrote: post #27
627467 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Playing devils advocate: Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s. It's the constitution which prevents the referendum from happening. (I believe for a referendum to be constitutional, Spain's "federal" parliament would have to agree to it and the whole country would have to vote). Personally I feel this whole comparison between the 2 situations highlights the cultural differences: conse…

> Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s Totally agree. Yet, the 70s were different times. Getting out of a dictatorship and moving into a democratic state takes a lot of compromises on all sides. Back then, there was the sense of urgency to agree on common terms, for the time being, to allow the country and the people to transition into a modern democracy. It's been 40 years now. Time…

> Times change, the world changes, people change. A constitution is a very important document for a country

There are legal ways to change a constitution. In all cases, it starts by changing public opinion.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#54

Post by rbanffy »

teh_klev wrote: post #34
tbatchelli wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy…

Thank you. People forget, democracy is a process, it doesn't just stop some time in the past.

It's a continuous, ongoing process of transforming societies. It's delicate and must be protected and cherished.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#55

Post by gfiorav »

bonzini wrote: post #44
dazc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence." So why not just let the vote go ahead and get it over with?

Because of the precedent, presumably. If it is not allowed by the Spanish Constitution, what will be the next part of the Constitution that will be ignored?

Yup, pretty much.

There IS a procedure for modifying the constitution, and it requieres 2/3 of the senate to agree.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#56

Post by monodeldiablo »

dawkins wrote: post #46
monodeldiablo wrote: post #25

When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia. "Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Ch…

"Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations" "Spain's a stable republic" It's saddens me to see so much ignorance and nonsense. Keeping aside that Spain is a monarchy, in today's Catalonia people have to fight for basic things like the right to educate their children in Spanish, mayors who do not support the referendum are being harrased by the radicals... that is a little example of the "oppresion" you…

And why do you think that such radicalism has taken hold in Catalonia? Has it ever been thus, or could it possibly be in reaction to something...?

And do you think that the Spanish government's actions will encourage unity or fan the flames of separatism?

I think Catalan independence is a stupid idea, but you'd have to be pretty blinkered not to see the historical, ongoing heavy-handedness of the Spanish government in response to its regions. Countries responsive to their citizenry don't, as a general rule, have two or more internal states in which >30% of the population wants to secede.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#57

Post by krona »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #51
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

"At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake." That referendum was restricted to two options, what the UK government wanted and what they thought was too extreme a position to win. By excluding the middle way option, which polling suggested would win they hoped to get their own position rubber stamped. The fact that i…

Not really.

The wording of the question was decided by the Scottish Parliament and reviewed for intelligibility by the Electoral Commission, an independent body.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#58

Post by rbanffy »

farresito wrote: post #38
iagooar wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, you are from Gijón. Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy. In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what…

Thank you. It's quite surprising how hard it is for a lot of people to understand this. Listening to the Spanish president say that what's going on in Catalonia is anti-democratic and that democracy is following the constitution is the most frustrating thing you can hear, and I'm surprised people use that argument against the pro-independence movement.

Democracy requires the rule of law. The law says the vote should not take place, therefore either the vote doesn't take place or the law (the constitution, in this case) is changed.

Politics is the art of the possible. Right now, this is not possible and pushing for it is not constructive.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#59

Post by severino »

gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

> The people leading this movement in Catalonia is riddled with corruption

Every single party in Spain is riddled with corruption. But it doesn't mean they can't defend some ideology anymore. Besides, this is not some crazy politician's idea, but a movement from people ranging from the far left to the Christian democracy. Some parties changed their positions to "ride the wave", though.

> There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.

And how you know that? Polls? Polls means nothing. They can say whatever their planners want them to say.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#60

Post by nsnick »

descala wrote: post #48

This is an example of a seized web site http://ref1oct.cat/ it had information about the poll. The JS in the source is really sad, one of the options click baits you to an Spanish sports newspaper.

Wow the coat of arms of the Spanish government still has a fasces on it? You learn something every day.
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