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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#21

Post by ghostDancer »

plehoux wrote: post #9

I'm amazed by how the Spanish government manages all of this. Haven't they study independence movements in Canada and the U.K.? The only reason Quebec is not a country is that the Canadian government kept a 'somewhat' cool head during the two referendums. Breaking Point is a damn good CBC documentary about the Quebec referendum: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl7lOundk4Y

It's Spain, the politicians in the government are using it to cover that they have more than 800 members of their party being under investigation or even prosecuted from corruption. The governing party is being investigated for having using black money to pay for elections among other things like getting rich. They embrace themselves inside the Spanish flag and the unity of the country.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#22

Post by Markoff »

tryingagainbro wrote: post #8
dogma1138 wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum. /s

Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.

what about Ukraine? laat time I checked they were invaded by Russia, not much to do with some free will of local citizens through some official referendum

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#23

Post by tbatchelli »

pfortuny wrote: post #10
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

That constitution was written and signed under Military watch. Let's not forget Franco, a genocidal dictator, died of old age while still in power, he was not ousted by democratic forces. And no one ever went to jail for the dictatorship. Many in power during the dictatorship remained in power for a long time after it "ended". The current constitution is a reflection of that time, where Spain was a nascent democracy but the military and judiciary (and oligarchies) were still controlled by Franco people. Times change, so do societies, and constitutions can be amended to reflect that. In fact Spain recently amended it's constitution overnight. They could also amend the constitution to allow for a vote, but they don't want to.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#24

Post by gfiorav »

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but:

You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corruption. Public workers have been pressured to accept participation in the referendum (which is ilegal to do).

And just to finish: if you’re going to reference any prior “referendum” know that it’s not only ilegal like this one (thus no observers, nor accurate census) but also take into account participation (usually very low).

In short: please be skeptical about whatever you hear from either side. There’s an estimated 40-45% of support for the vote and less than that (30-40%) support for independence.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#25

Post by monodeldiablo »

When I was dating a Croatian girl, I asked her which country reminded her most of pre-war Yugoslavia.

"Spain," she said, without skipping a beat. "It's eerily similar. All power and wealth flowing to the capital in the center of the country? Check. Generations-long repression of regional, cultural, and linguistic diversity? Check. Awkward tendency to rewrite history to avoid open discussion of WWII-era atrocities? Check. A staunch refusal by the central government to engage in meaningful dialogue with aggrieved regions and peoples? Check. Brutal repression of freedom of speech or demonstrations, inspiring ever-more-radical nationalism... All the ingredients are there."

"Nah," I said. "Spain's a stable republic! There's no way it'll descend into a Yugoslavia-style death fest."

She just arched her eyebrow. "War was unthinkable to us right up until the moment the JNA started shelling us. It's a miracle Spain's still one country, honestly."

The more I learn -- about both Yugoslavia and Spain -- the more I fear she was right.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#26

Post by tomjen3 »

gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to make this go violent.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#27

Post by iagooar »

627467 wrote: post #15
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Playing devils advocate: Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s. It's the constitution which prevents the referendum from happening. (I believe for a referendum to be constitutional, Spain's "federal" parliament would have to agree to it and the whole country would have to vote). Personally I feel this whole comparison between the 2 situations highlights the cultural differences: conse…

> Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s

Totally agree. Yet, the 70s were different times. Getting out of a dictatorship and moving into a democratic state takes a lot of compromises on all sides. Back then, there was the sense of urgency to agree on common terms, for the time being, to allow the country and the people to transition into a modern democracy.

It's been 40 years now. Times change, the world changes, people change. A constitution is a very important document for a country, yet it should not be used as a license to oppress people.

Many Catalonians requested to change some parts of the constitution to better represent Catalonia's cultural and political differences, as compared to Spain. Yet Spain would not even consider talking about anything that challenges the status quo.

We will see where this is heading.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#28

Post by farresito »

pfortuny wrote: post #10
iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

If the law goes against one of the principles of democracy, the issue is with the law. What would your opinion be on a constitution that allows slavery? Because that was the case with a lot of constitutions in the past, and I think we would all agree that from a human right's point of view it was wrong. What's going on in Catalonia is illegal, but it's the democratically correct choice, and given what the Spanish government says ("we will only talk as long as it's within the legality"), it's the only thing you can do.

For those HN readers that might not know, a decade ago Catalonia tried to pass something known as the Estatut, which would give us more rights and more power (similar to what the Basque country has had for a long time). Needless to say, it didn't pass because the big parties opposed to it. One of the two important political parties in Spain (the Popular party) went as far as going around Spain collecting signatures (four million) to get rid of the Estatut. And that's part of the story of how the pro-independence movement gained as much traction as it has right now.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#29

Post by gfiorav »

tomjen3 wrote: post #26
gfiorav wrote: post #24

I know it’s hard to not take parts with the “oppressed” but: You must know that this referendum was approved without reading the bill in the Catalonian parliament, so the opposition couldn’t even have a say. Even the vicepresident of the chamber stepped out of line since it was so outrageously un-democratic. The people leading this movement in Catalonia (very much like the central government) is riddled with corrupti…

We should of course be sceptical, but at the same time it seems that Spain is active so heavy handed in this and related matters that they are almost trying to make this go violent.

This is the thing: the referendum is ilegal according to constitution (agreed on by Catalans in the 70s).

We can debate if it should or should not be ilegal, but it’s a different thing.

These actions are taken to avoid violating the constitutional order, not the vote directly. If the constitution is being infringed, you can’t make exceptions.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#30

Post by jawbone3 »

iagooar wrote: post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Uh, you remember how indyref was Cameron gambling the cohecion of his country for the opportunity to steal a policy issue from the opposition? The idea that indyref was allowed out of respect of popular will is utterly deluded, Cameron never cared for the scots as they are too left to vote for him.
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