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Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

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Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum. /s

Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.

However, freedom of speech is an inalienable human right (and in need of most protection when it's political speech) - so regardless of whether you think that government's power derives from the people, they should be allowed to talk about the referendum.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#12
post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

> Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto suspending the Catalonian autonomy and basically abandoning any democratic dialog.

The irony is that many who support the independence of Catalonia are against independence of current EU member states and fail to see the inherent dangers in the centralization of power (many such dangers exemplified by this very article and listed by you).

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#13
post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

The democracy is weak because of the constitution. It should be amended.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes just like England carpetbombed Glasgo to stop the Scottish referendum. /s

Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.

Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union.

For years Catalonia has formally requested for this right to be exercised in different ways, and the Spanish government has made every effort to stop any possible way to channel this right. This has continued until today, when the Spanish militarized police has raided the Catalan institutions and arrested members of the Catalan government that was elected with the mandate to let Catalans exercise this right in spite of the official Spanish position, which it's trying to do through a referendum where both positions in favor and against independence may have equal opportunities to be heard.

Spain has always defended that this right to self-determination is confined to colonies because it would otherwise conflict with the also very important principle of territorial integrity. However, the International Court of Justice explained in its Advisory Opinion of 22 July 2010 regarding the case of Kosovo that “the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to the sphere of relations between States”. Thus, even unilateral declarations of independence do not conflict with the aforementioned principle: “general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“.[0]

[0] http://www.icj-cij.org/files/case-related/141/16010.pdf

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#15
post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Playing devils advocate: Spain has a constitution that was signed by Catalonian reps in the 70s. It's the constitution which prevents the referendum from happening. (I believe for a referendum to be constitutional, Spain's "federal" parliament would have to agree to it and the whole country would have to vote).

Personally I feel this whole comparison between the 2 situations highlights the cultural differences: consensus seeking anglo-saxons, conflict/imposition-driven Hispanics/Latins. (non-hispanic latin here)

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#16
post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

is it not the law based on the popular will, theoretically?

Because it seems to me that these people are asking to vote.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#18
post #6

It's pretty sad to see how weak some of the recent democracies are. At least in the UK the government allowed people to express themselves, even though many thought an independent Scotland would be a huge mistake. Now compare that with the Spanish government. Banning a referendum, raiding political parties and Catalonian government offices, arresting government officials, flirting with far-right politics, de-facto su…

Well, well, well, well... You should read the constitution and compare it to what the catalonian establishment is doing. The rule of law applies also to politicians.

Oh, you are from Gijón.

Using the constitution as some sort of shield / holy bible that can't ever possibly be changed IS what show the weakness of Spanish democracy.

In the end, governments are there to serve their people. They don't make sense as entities on their own. They represent a group of people who chooses to be represented by their government. If the government attacks the people and refuses to hear to what people have to say, you need to resort to not following the dogma.

Re: Spanish police raid .Cat domain name registry offices

#19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I mention a few counterexamples? I guess no need to because you know. Yeah in 2017 some things are no longer accepted in the heart of Europe but Yugoslavia, Ukraine etc are recent examples. IIRC, you have the right to leave in peace, use your language, autonomy and not be discriminated but declaring independence is quite a few steps above that.

Self-determination of peoples is a jus cogens law and a cardinal principle in international law. It's part of the UN's Charter and it's enshrined in many international treaties subscribed by Spain and by the European Union. For years Catalonia has formally requested for this right to be exercised in different ways, and the Spanish government has made every effort to stop any possible way to channel this right. This h…

“general international law contains no applicable prohibition of declarations of independence“

Sure, you can declare all day but who will recognize you and if it's "illegal" in the country you want to leave, you will be jailed. If they do the ethnic cleansing that Serbia did in Kosovo then, you may have a better chance internationally. Changing of borders is frowned upon, almost every country has their own issues.

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