Live data from Hacker News

W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

boingboing.net

421–430 of 1001 posts

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#421
Good! Let them do that, and let us keep working on things like ipfs, blockchain naming systems, matrix and host identity protocols. The more they try to corrupt the web, the more energy goes into fixing the broken architectures. Then one day, nobody will use the broken DRM net. Politics is a programmer's most wasteful use of his time. Code them out of business.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let them go, and take their drivel with them. if they want DRM, let them convince their own customers; just leave it off my machine.

There are multiple open source web browsers. You are free to install one without DRM and free to visit websites that don't need that feature. What changes for you just because there is a standard?

Websites that otherwise wouldn't have used DRM start to use it, that's what changes.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#423
post #327

Shame, shame, shame. We're losing the internet day by day, if we haven't done so already. I've seen people and posts here and there calling for attention on these issues, but imho it's all too subtle. We should start using harsher terminology for what's actually happening. This is flat out CORRUPTION, and I'm not seeing anyone express it as such. It's probably too late already, and unfortunately, this is merely a ref…

If someone launches a new HTML-based Web with crippled javascript ( no network comm access, for one, including ability to trigger links or forms), some small, restricted subset of CSS, and much better built-in dynamic table and form elements, I'm there . This Web's about to be eaten by DRM and WebAssembly anyway. Pretty soon it'll just be a way to deliver QT apps (or some other framework that runs in WebAssembly and…

Ultimately, I think the failure of the open web runs deeper than that. When I visit, for example, a cookbook website, when I view a recipe, the problem isn't just that the site can run arbitrary scripts on my computer. It's also that I have no control over how that recipe displays because so much of that display is in HTML. I can't pull it into a useful format and store it with all my other recipes because it's in HTML. And contrary to its goals, HTML isn't a semantic markup language. I can't automatically convert imperial into metric units, because they aren't represented as measurements at all. I can't configure the display of the recipes for my nearsighted grandmother because that configuration happens when the recipe is rendered from a recipe document into an HTML document. The failure of the open web is that we need JavaScript to reasonably render the various kinds of documents which are being stripped of their metadata so they can be shoehorned into a non-semantic document format.

Removing JavaScript prevents malware and adware vendors from running their programs on our machines, but it doesn't empower users. We can control or data but we still can't analyze data websites give us.

The way forward, I think, is to create more standardized document types and let people build renderers for them. If I go to a cookbook website, I should be able to download recipe documents. If I don't like how my cookbook program renders the recipe, I should be able to download another program can render it. This breaks the power that websites have as the sole entities with the capability to render their documents, and gives the power back to users.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#424
post #306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And what's your solution (proposal) for the problem they faced? Make the zero-tolerance for DRM a unique selling point of Firefox.

Firefox is, AFAIK, the only browser vendor that decouples the EME module from the browser, allowing the browser to be downloaded without any DRM support at all. See the various "EME-free" directories here: http://download.cdn.mozilla.net/pub/firefox/releases/55.0/

That design decision makes sense, to decouple the EME module, and great that Mozilla offers a prebuilt binary without it, as an opt-out. I wonder if Chromium (or a fork) can also be built without this feature?

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let them go, and take their drivel with them. if they want DRM, let them convince their own customers; just leave it off my machine.

There are multiple open source web browsers. You are free to install one without DRM and free to visit websites that don't need that feature. What changes for you just because there is a standard?

The security holes that the standard introduces into my browser.

If I can compile it out, or get a version that someone I trust has compiled with it removed, that only leaves the rest of the web as a botnet attack surface.

That's what changes. Or doesn't improve, depending on how one views the timeline.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the W3C is the web. You'd be forking to what? This was basically wanted by Firefox, Apple, Microsoft and Google. They are the modern web. Trying to go against them is how we ended up with XHTML, a standard no-one really wanted, or implemented.

> This was basically wanted by Firefox, Apple, Microsoft and Google. This was absolutely NOT wanted by Firefox. They were the only browser to represent the users in this fight. Don't put Mozilla in the same group as those other traitors.

Mozilla's users outvoted Mozilla staff, and Mozilla staff gracefully conceded that users are best served when they have the OPTION to consume DRM-controlled content or free content.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#427
post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me it's the other way around. Netflix is on the other side? Cancel 'em.

I applaud you and anyone else who does this but I fear too many people sit on the other side of caring more about having Neflix now than maintaining the open internet. I know I won't be able to persuade my partner that we shouldn't watch Netflix anymore because of an issue she doesn't care about.

Maybe you can persuade your partner with:

1. Cancelling Netflix saves money.

and ...

2. Watching less TV gives you more free time to get outside, exercise etc.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not about the content available. It's about the control.

"Extortion" typically refers to using force to unjustly extract money from someone. Without unjust extraction of money, there can be no extortion. I understand that others have concerns about control, and that's totally legitimate, but it's also not what I was responding to.

The thing being extorted doesn't have to be money. It can be, for example, control of a distribution channel to lock out prospective competitors.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#429
post #309

I think i don't get it. A company called Microsoft builds a software which is able to render html. This company makes money and talks to another company called google which also is making money by selling movies and stuff and which builds a software which is able to render html. And those two companies are talking to a third huge company, who makes a shit ton of money and also makes a software which is able to render…

> to make it easier for there consumers.

No, never. DRM Is never easier for consumers.

What happened was that Apple banned alternative browsers and plugins like Flash on iOS which meant there was a sizable platform of - importantly - semi-rich people that did not have a usable DRM solution outside being told to install an app.

The user dropoff from demanding you install an app is huge.

They were losing money, plain and simple, on people who didn't A. download a plugin or B. install an app to push DRM on them.

This battle was over years ago. Safari adopted EME, all the corporate powers that be that wanted to have their cake and eat it too on the buffet of consumer ignorance to how dicked over they are when companies shovel proprietary code down their throats. No major browser wanted to even try fighting this. New browsers that turn up will never gain traction if they don't "support Netflix".

Those of us who care about ethics go on using Firefox without the DRM bullshit plugin / Chromium / etc and the rest keep being ignorant as they always have been.

Really, DRM isn't even helping anyone. It is a lawyer requirement for legal contracts between media producers and distributors. "We require you fuck over your customers to give our old rich men investors who have no clue what technology is a false idea that nobody can copy our floppy". Pirates will continue to circumvent and distribute better quality versions of everything than any company is willing to stream you anyway, and people who were using the streaming services in the first place weren't pirating to begin with.

What this does mean is what should be straightforward user experiences for online video are going to start becoming a clusterfuck of broken, insecure proprietary blob DRM drivers every video site "automagically" downloads and runs on users computers that either don't work cross platform or breaks all the time. Web video will have peaked in 2016, when ubiquitous mp4 support meant almost any site can just host videos and have them work, and 2018 and on will be the era of everyone trying to use shitty DRM plugins that will fail and break everywhere just like Flash and Silverlight did years ago. But having the option available is going to inspire companies like newspapers that have no business trying to DRM lock their newscasts to try to use DRM anyway because fuck ethics.

Re: W3C abandons consensus, standardizes DRM, EFF resigns

#430
post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Look no further than the good work the WHATWG did And who was WHATWG? Oh right, exactly the same companies that now voted for DRM as W3C standard. And why could they do WHATWG? Because they are the vendors of the majority browsers.

WHATWG did not include EME in the WHATWG HTML living standard, and supported EFF's proposal to protect security researchers: https://blog.whatwg.org/drm-and-web-security Ian Hickson also came out strongly against DRM when this whole debate started: https://plus.google.com/+IanHickson/posts/iPmatxBYuj2

Ian Hickson is opposed to centralized control of content on the web, but is staunchly committed to centrally controlling humans' right to have children via intentional genocide!

http://ln.hixie.ch/?start=1023585606&count=1

Post reply on HN