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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#291

Post by pascalxus »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #141
kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Any wage gains that are derived by unionisation are zero sum. They are economic rent extracted by reducing the competitiveness of labour markets, and advantaging unionized workers working for big employers at the expense of those without such jobs. In the long run, the reduced profit margins caused by wages that are artificially high (above the rate that would be established by the free market) results in less invest…

This only applies to companies that compete in a competitive marketplace. It doesn't apply to monopolies who have enormous margins: for example: google, facebook, etc.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#292

Post by s73ver_ »

ChemicalWarfare wrote: post #228
bnolsen wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No. The union leaders have zero interest in making any company succeed. They have a ton of interest in themselves succeeding. In fact unions work very hard against innovation and in keeping status quo.

Not sure why he's getting downvoted. Unions are only interested in company's existence but even then very often they are willing to see it go to the brink not budging on concessions etc. Not to mention the whole objection to the "right to work" approach.

How many times have you seen a company push their best to the brink, or just outright fire them for little to no reason? I've seen it quite a few times. So unions aren't the only ones doing what you accuse them of doing. So why call them out for it if you're not going to call the companies out for doing the same thing?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#293

Post by matchagaucho »

dkhenry wrote: post #15

No its not. This is a union fluff piece. The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense. Thats why you hire these services as contractors. I think the real test here will be how long till the union pushes facebook too far and they are just dropped. I have never seen a union that could actually compete with non-union shops unless there was a legal force preventing the competition.

"The reality is these are contractors who will get dropped as soon as it makes sense."

This is exactly the kind of abuse Unions seek to end. Workers cannot simply be fired.

The collective bargaining contract signed between the tech companies and Unions defines grounds for termination.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#294

Post by s73ver_ »

chimeracoder wrote: post #144
mseebach wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So that's a nice optimistic vision, and if I had any faith we could keep it to that, I'd be for it. My vision includes scope creep and lots of greedy ambitious good-at-politics less-good-at-actually-doing-work types grabbing the show once it's successful. Most organisations meaningfully described as unions has a non-trivial element of excluding people from the trade in one way or another. I will never be a part of an…

> Most organisations meaningfully described as unions has a non-trivial element of excluding people from the trade in one way or another. I will never be a part of any organisation that will prevent any person from (trying to) make a living as a programmer in whatever way. The problem is that, once an industry unionizes, you don't really have a choice. The process of decertification is basically a catch-22: unions ar…

"The problem is that, once an industry unionizes, you don't really have a choice."

That's entirely false, and intellectually dishonest.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#295

Post by throwaway140917 »

tptacek wrote: post #60

If the drivers and cafeteria workers at tech companies can organize, so can the developers. Unlike the developers, the drivers tend to be financially insecure. In this economy, they're eminently replaceable. What they do is outside the core competency of their employers. You'd think they'd have almost no leverage. And yet, in the space of just a few years, they've managed to secure higher wages and health benefits --…

Oh wow... No union even required.

When a workplace gets "upgraded" to open plan, if two or more workers refuse to come in out of protest, they cannot be fired. Sounds like a great way to work from home for as long as open plan lasts. (IANAL)

Remember this, HNers!

https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/protected-concerted-a...

The law we enforce gives employees the right to act together to try to improve their pay and working conditions, with or without a union.

Is the activity concerted?

Generally, this requires two or more employees acting together to improve wages or working conditions, but the action of a single employee may be considered concerted if he or she involves co-workers before acting, or acts on behalf of others.

Does it seek to benefit other employees?

Will the improvements sought – whether in pay, hours, safety, workload, or other terms of employment – benefit more than just the employee taking action? Or is the action more along the lines of a personal gripe, which is not protected?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#296

Post by tyingq »

DataWorker wrote: post #285
mulmen wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, fine. "Is that because of unions or some other market force such as high demand for white board walls relative to the supply of contractors".

It's due to the lack of wall painting robots and it would seem that the market is soon to provide a solution. The future will hasten the demise of human labor, it's economic inevitability.

That is one thing unions specifically address..."work rules". What can, and cannot, be automated.

It does require the union to have the upper hand in the first place in order to get a company management to sign a union contract with restrictions like that.

However, for this particular story, it makes no sense, because the union only has leverage with their employer, not with the big name companies that have chosen their employer as the provider of the service. The big name companies would just switch to a new provider if they didn't like what was happening.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#297

Post by s73ver_ »

chimeracoder wrote: post #87
arjie wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope not. I've seen enough HNers talk about how they want immigrants out of the industry, and about how we should restrict the supply of programmers to keep pay high. No thanks. I don't want to baseline myself to a bunch of guys who can't get a good job when the market is as hot as it's been.

> I hope not. I've seen enough HNers talk about how they want immigrants out of the industry, and about how we should restrict the supply of programmers to keep pay high Incidentally, this is exactly what labor unions have spent their time doing for much of their history as incorporated organizations. Labor unions fought (successfully) to exclude immigrants from certain regions from immigrating, and even fought to re…

They don't like to talk about it because it's entirely off the subject, here. It is extremely intellectually dishonest for you to say that, implying that a tech union would do such a thing.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#298

Post by s73ver_ »

stale2002 wrote: post #233
ryanworl wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if a union would help you specifically because I don't know who you are or who you work for. But in general, a union could negotiate the development practices you and your co-workers want. As an example, if you and your co-workers wanted one week per quarter devoted solely to paying back technical debt, your union could demand it. There is no reason why a union has to do anything in particular at all if…

"There is no reason why a union has to do anything in particular at all if you don't want it to." Yes there it. If a union takes over the workforce of your company, now you have to follow the union rules. If unions were just opt in, them yes you'd be right. But unions are NOT opt in for many states. One you are a union shop, you are screwed if you disagree with the union.

"Yes there it. If a union takes over the workforce of your company, now you have to follow the union rules."

Yes. Which they, as the union, would decide on.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#299

Post by s73ver_ »

stale2002 wrote: post #279
Frondo wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union is also a democratically-run organization, so if you disagree with it, you have some recourse. A workplace is not democratically run, so if you disagree with it, you are also screwed, only this time you have no recourse.

I'd rather only get screwed by 1 group than have the possibility of being screwed by 2 groups. Voting and democracy doesn't help anything. I am just 1 vote. I'd rather have things negotiated between me, and only me and the other party.

So between you, and the entirety of the company.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#300

Post by s73ver_ »

mlindner wrote: post #193
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I laugh when people propose this. I moved to Silicon Valley from across the country because there are good opportunities to learn from companies here. If I'm forced into a union my company will shortly be going under so I'll just find a new job. Silicon Valley workers are already the most overpaid workers in the entire country. A similar job elsewhere pays 50%-75% what I make here. If you try to unionize to force wag…

"Silicon Valley workers are already the most overpaid workers in the entire country."

You're gonna have to provide evidence of that. And don't just quote a dollar amount, because that needs to be taken in context. That context being the amount of money the company makes, the value that the employee brings, the cost of living in the area, and other factors.

"A similar job elsewhere pays 50%-75% what I make here."

So what? It costs less in those areas. But that, to me, sounds like a bunch of people who haven't asked for what they're worth.

"If you try to unionize to force wages higher, all this does is causes the exodus of companies from Silicon Valley even faster."

Given the cost of living there, doubtful. And there are far more things to organize around besides wages.

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