Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo • Hacker News Board

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#81

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:22 PM UTC

danielvf wrote: post #76

tptacek wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment creates the impression that without unions, developers wouldn't have to deal with "power structures". But to a pretty good first approximation every technology firm in the industry is a "power structure" --- a rigid and overt one, at that --- run by financiers and owners. So it's hard to see what rank-and-file professionals would have to lose from exercising their own market power, at least in your analy…

And add a union to the current situation, and now you have two power structures over you, not one.

Yes, and you'll be a constituent of one of them, which is the argument for organizing.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#82

Post by jules » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:23 PM UTC

CapitalistCartr wrote: post #37

kevmo wrote: post #30

If there is one thing I've learned from two decades of reading about labor history, it's: Every gain labor has ever made has been taken. Every gain the working class (i.e. the overwhelming majority of people) has achieved has come from organizing their majority of low-power workers and then standing strongly against the empowered minority at the top. Good for these people. They are essentially moving our society forw…

Unfortunately, anyone willing to treat employees horribly, operates cheaper. If using trafficked chinese women were legal, the owner willing to be a psychopath will put his competition under. Capitalism is an inherently unstable system and only works with good regulation. I think a capitalist system only works as well as its regulation.

People trafficking is an entirely different matter because that involves the use of force. The employees can go to another employer if that employer treats them better. That is the main protector against bad employers, NOT regulation. Most of the advances in labour protection have been a result of a general increase in wealth and better alternatives. Take child labour for example. It used to be that almost every child from the age of 10 worked. That that isn't the case any more is not a result of laws, it's a result of increased productivity which meant that a family could survive without the children working.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#83

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:24 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #77

tptacek wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's your point? I agree that developers don't neat an equivalent to the Teamsters. The NLRA protects any concerted effort among employees to improve workplace conditions. You don't have to be an "NLRB-governed union" to organize.

> The NLRA protects any concerted effort among employees to improve workplace conditions. You don't have to be an "NLRB-governed union" to organize. I understand that the NLRA contains provisions which protect employee activity in a non-unionized workplace, but this entire thread beings with the question "do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize?", not "do you think tech-workers will begin to make an organize…

The NLRA broadly protects any concerted action involving two or more employees to improve any workplace condition or term of employment. You do not have to be in a "union" with "shop rules" and collective wage bargaining to take advantage of it.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#84

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:27 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #83

chimeracoder wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The NLRA protects any concerted effort among employees to improve workplace conditions. You don't have to be an "NLRB-governed union" to organize. I understand that the NLRA contains provisions which protect employee activity in a non-unionized workplace, but this entire thread beings with the question "do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize?", not "do you think tech-workers will begin to make an organize…

The NLRA broadly protects any concerted action involving two or more employees to improve any workplace condition or term of employment. You do not have to be in a "union" with "shop rules" and collective wage bargaining to take advantage of it.

> The NLRA broadly protects any concerted action involving two or more employees to improve any workplace condition or term of employment. You do not have to be in a "union" with "shop rules" and collective wage bargaining to take advantage of it.

I'm aware - but again, that wasn't the original question of this thread.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#85

Post by tptacek » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

chimeracoder wrote: post #84

tptacek wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The NLRA broadly protects any concerted action involving two or more employees to improve any workplace condition or term of employment. You do not have to be in a "union" with "shop rules" and collective wage bargaining to take advantage of it.

> The NLRA broadly protects any concerted action involving two or more employees to improve any workplace condition or term of employment. You do not have to be in a "union" with "shop rules" and collective wage bargaining to take advantage of it. I'm aware - but again, that wasn't the original question of this thread.

It seems silly to confine the question to Teamster-style unions. You want the answer to that? No, tech workers are not going to create the Tech Teamsters.

That's not the important question. The important question is, will tech workers organize, and, when they do, what will that organization look like? That's a question we can speculate productively about.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#86

Post by curun1r » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:29 PM UTC

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

My guess would be no. Unions work when labor is fungible. And while a business might view many tech employees that way, we've largely resisted seeing ourselves that way. We mythologize the 10x programmer and openly acknowledge that there is a large but hard-to-measure productivity difference between high performers and low performers.

So why would a group that believes that put organizations in place that force businesses to treat and pay employees equally? Why would that group start to accept that years of service is a proxy for useful experience and ability? Fear of lawsuits mean that it's already too difficult to get rid of disruptive elements in an engineering team...are we really willing to make that process harder? Will the actual 10x programmers--the ones that have the data and recommendations on their CV to prove it--be willing to cede their individual negotiating power?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#87

Post by chimeracoder » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

arjie wrote: post #74

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

I hope not. I've seen enough HNers talk about how they want immigrants out of the industry, and about how we should restrict the supply of programmers to keep pay high. No thanks. I don't want to baseline myself to a bunch of guys who can't get a good job when the market is as hot as it's been.

> I hope not. I've seen enough HNers talk about how they want immigrants out of the industry, and about how we should restrict the supply of programmers to keep pay high

Incidentally, this is exactly what labor unions have spent their time doing for much of their history as incorporated organizations. Labor unions fought (successfully) to exclude immigrants from certain regions from immigrating, and even fought to retroactively strip them of citizenship, so that members could seize their property after they were deported. Labor unions fought to relocate Japanese-Americans during World War II, to create jobs for members, and then fought to prevent them from returning home.

The current quota system for visas and immigration that tech people frequently complain about? That was the result of legislation that the AFL lobbied for decades ago.

People don't like to talk about this, because it's an ugly chapter of labor history, but especially in this day and age, it's important to remember.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#88

Post by pjc50 » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:33 PM UTC

balance_factor wrote: post #25

DINKDINK wrote: post #7

Appears to be free and non coercive negotiation until you get to the actual coersion: "In San Francisco the coalition persuaded the city transit authority to make it easier to deny permits to companies facing labor strife." If your negotiations rely on the monopoly that the state provides, is it really a negotiation?

The tech giants negotiations are relying on the monopoly that the state provides. Just to pick one piece of legislation, the 1947 Taft-Hartley Act, the government disallows various worker/employer agreements that benefit those doing the work. Meaning corporate America generally outlawed certain deals that could happen, when the workers were in a good position, that the corporation was willing to do. That is relying o…

> In fact, if you look to history and the creation of the first states in Sumeria thousands of years ago, the raison d'etre of those states were to use violence and propaganda so that an idle class could expropriate surplus labor time from their slaves doing all the work.

I've not encountered Sumerian revisionist libertarianism before ...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#89

Post by dkhenry » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:34 PM UTC

wfo wrote: post #38

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

If they are smart, they should: right now they have a lot of power in the workplace because there is demand for them. This is a problem tech business owners have identified: programmers have too much power on the job relative to their bosses. They require good wages, they require too many benefits, they complain and sue when they are sexually harassed, they demand equity and to be treated well and refuse to accept th…

Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like you said programmers should unionize before the army of $12/hour programmers arrives then what you are claiming is that software development could be done by someone who was trained and willing to accept $12 per hour. Essentially you are making the claim they are a common laborer much like a construction worker or delivery driver ( both of whom make more then $12/ hour ). If however you view software development as a profession requiring intelligence and a deep understanding of the subject matter then you don't care about the $12/hour laborers because they will never be able to replicate the work of a qualified professional.

The people who don't want a union aren't resisting it because they want to live in some libertarian wet dream, they are resisting it because they see their profession as something that can't be reduced to common labor and they don't see a labor union as able to provide any benefits, as indeed they don't when you are dealing with a profession. The push to get people to unionize is not about workers rights its about putting technology professionals in the place business owners want them in. No one likes the idea that software is eating the world and there is a limited group of people , who are not the traditional power brokers, who are very well positioned to capitalize on that. They would much rather that software development become a commodity so they can continue their model of capital vs labor.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#90

Post by tedunangst » Thu, Sep 14, 2017, 3:35 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #75

wyldfire wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real problem is the late 20th century stigma labor organization has acquired. I think the stigma is well-deserved. Indeed they are rife with corruption and often create very odd incentives. Unfortunately unions suffer the same fate as other "invisible" benefits: everyone takes them for granted and doesn't recognize their value. People focus on the drawbacks and it's much easier to convince them that we're all b…

Organized labor has most of the same problems as organized ownership and capital. Ownership and capital has some unique problems. Labor has some other unique problems. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Unless you're arguing for the elimination of the market system, "this structure in a market economy is prone to corruption" isn't a dispositive argument, or really an argument at all.

Labor seems to have some unique "challenges" that don't affect other organizations. If I buy a Dodge, nobody from Ford is going to come slash my tires. If I hire a non-union electrician, well, maybe my house burns down. "Shoddy craftsmanship", right? Always hire union to be safe. If anybody is arguing for the elimination of the market system, I'd start by looking at the unions.