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Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

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Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#111

Post by dsfyu404ed »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #2

Question for the HN crowd: do you think tech-workers will begin to unionize? It seems to me that (in general) they've got such a nice position in the economy there's probably a bit of an "if it ain't broke don't fix it" mentality. Is that correct?

If they do it will be like welders where union membership ties mostly to workplace and there's several professional associations that have certification systems and whether a particular cert is required is dependent on state regulations that pertain to the nature of the job.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#112

Post by mseebach »

tptacek wrote: post #95
dkhenry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment shows the real divide on unionization and its not about someone's political ideology, its fundamentally about how they view the profession. If like you said programmers should unionize before the army of $12/hour programmers arrives then what you are claiming is that software development could be done by someone who was trained and willing to accept $12 per hour. Essentially you are making the claim they…

Absolutely the most common objection to labor organization is that it's something associated intrinsically with low-status commodified occupations. But that's a fallacy. Most of the classic professions are organized. They're usually organized around professional associations and not "labor unions", and their collective bargaining concerns things other than their wages. But those are distinctions without differences.…

My fear for a tech union is whether it will deny someone like me the kind of opportunity I was very fortunate to enjoy roughly 10-20 years ago. At lot of us here got our starts under scrappy circumstances and with lots of hustling. I am very cautious not to support any move that will amount to pulling up the ladder behind me.

You mentioned AMA in another comment; will our tech union require eight years of university and one year of residency at IniTech to "practice programming"? Will it require a minimum hourly wage? At what rate? My first programming job at 17 wasn't super well paid, but better than working at the gas station. Will there be an ethics committee that might get high-jacked by activists and "disbar" programmers working for sites with objectionable content? Or the NSA or ICE? And if it can't do any of those things, what teeth will it actually have?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#113

Post by crdoconnor »

wyldfire wrote: post #69
tptacek wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since the capital and ownership sectors of our economy are all trained to operate businesses rationally and to not leave value on the table, it seems pretty clear that anything that labor doesn't take will be traded away. To me, in that light, neither the "depredations" of owners and investors nor the "coercion" of labor unions is really a problem; it's just the natural give and take of the market at work. The real p…

> The real problem is the late 20th century stigma labor organization has acquired. I think the stigma is well-deserved. Indeed they are rife with corruption and often create very odd incentives. Unfortunately unions suffer the same fate as other "invisible" benefits: everyone takes them for granted and doesn't recognize their value. People focus on the drawbacks and it's much easier to convince them that we're all b…

>I think the stigma is well-deserved. Indeed they are rife with corruption

Are you asserting that unions are significantly more corrupt than the average corporation, government or charity or just that human institutions in general have a problem with corruption?

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#114

Post by tptacek »

mseebach wrote: post #112
tptacek wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely the most common objection to labor organization is that it's something associated intrinsically with low-status commodified occupations. But that's a fallacy. Most of the classic professions are organized. They're usually organized around professional associations and not "labor unions", and their collective bargaining concerns things other than their wages. But those are distinctions without differences.…

My fear for a tech union is whether it will deny someone like me the kind of opportunity I was very fortunate to enjoy roughly 10-20 years ago. At lot of us here got our starts under scrappy circumstances and with lots of hustling. I am very cautious not to support any move that will amount to pulling up the ladder behind me. You mentioned AMA in another comment; will our tech union require eight years of university…

I have effectively no college, and went to work right after high school. Whatever labor organization tech workers come up with doesn't have to be the AFL-CIO and it doesn't have to be the AMA. It can just take the best attributes from all those organizations. Or it can start more modestly! Maybe tech workers will just come up with two or three things --- say, late exercise on options and better IP clauses --- and just start by organizing around those.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#116

Post by apsec112 »

tptacek wrote: post #81
danielvf wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And add a union to the current situation, and now you have two power structures over you, not one.

Yes, and you'll be a constituent of one of them, which is the argument for organizing.

Being a constituent doesn't necessarily mean anything. Eg., Eric Garner was a constituent of New York City. NYC is democratically governed, and he had an equal right to vote. It didn't help him very much.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#117

Post by bnolsen »

tptacek wrote: post #75
wyldfire wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real problem is the late 20th century stigma labor organization has acquired. I think the stigma is well-deserved. Indeed they are rife with corruption and often create very odd incentives. Unfortunately unions suffer the same fate as other "invisible" benefits: everyone takes them for granted and doesn't recognize their value. People focus on the drawbacks and it's much easier to convince them that we're all b…

Organized labor has most of the same problems as organized ownership and capital. Ownership and capital has some unique problems. Labor has some other unique problems. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Unless you're arguing for the elimination of the market system, "this structure in a market economy is prone to corruption" isn't a dispositive argument, or really an argument at all.

No. The union leaders have zero interest in making any company succeed. They have a ton of interest in themselves succeeding. In fact unions work very hard against innovation and in keeping status quo.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#118

Post by crdoconnor »

jules wrote: post #82
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, anyone willing to treat employees horribly, operates cheaper. If using trafficked chinese women were legal, the owner willing to be a psychopath will put his competition under. Capitalism is an inherently unstable system and only works with good regulation. I think a capitalist system only works as well as its regulation.

People trafficking is an entirely different matter because that involves the use of force. The employees can go to another employer if that employer treats them better. That is the main protector against bad employers, NOT regulation. Most of the advances in labour protection have been a result of a general increase in wealth and better alternatives. Take child labour for example. It used to be that almost every chil…

The elimination of child labor was NOT a result of increased productivity, in fact it grew during the onset of the industrial revolution. it came about as a result of a series of fierce union battles.

https://www.continuetolearn.uiowa.edu/laborctr/child_labor/a...

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#119

Post by tptacek »

tedunangst wrote: post #110
tptacek wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hear a lot of things about city bus drivers burning down houses, or telecom engineers slashing tires? There are a lot more unions in the US than people realize. For some reason (I can think of many), high-status workers in the US are captivated by the drama of a few particular unions, and have extrapolated wildly from it.

Well, the local bus drivers union isn't held in such high regard either, so maybe not the best example. And I seem to recall Verizon experiencing a sudden spike in equipment failure right around the time their telecom union went on strike. (Happy to concede there are unions people like, but if that's your best effort at naming two good ones, I think the problem is worse than you're acknowledging.)

You're the one who said unions lead to tire slashings and house burnings. Obviously, no they don't, but when that's pointed out, you retreat to "unions sometimes cause strikes" as if that was your position all along.

If your argument is that people have negative opinions about unions, well, respectfully, no shit. My point is that those opinions are not well-founded.

Re: Organizers have unionized 5,000 contract workers at Apple, Facebook, Yahoo

#120

Post by tptacek »

chimeracoder wrote: post #101
tptacek wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, the NLRA doesn't protect "some employee activity" in "non-unionized workforces". The core elements of the law that enable "unions" are available to enable any workplace organization of any form. It's deeply misleading to suggest that a group of employees availing themselves of the protections of the NLRA are putting themselves on a slippery slope to becoming the Teamsters.

> It's deeply misleading to suggest that a group of employees availing themselves of the protections of the NLRA are putting themselves on a slippery slope to becoming the Teamsters. That's not what I said. What I said: It's misleading to suggest that professional associations require the NLRA to operate.

What you appear to be arguing is that it would be better for tech workers if they could be fired for organizing.
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