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The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

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Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#131

Post by Spooky23 »

robotresearcher wrote: post #11
Overtonwindow wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps I'm too optimistic, but I think everything America needs to succeed and grow can be found right here in America. The problem is that it's sometimes cheaper to import foreign labor, or export domestic production.

Einstein, von Braun, Musk, Brin. Immigrants are more than cheap labor. edit just for a bit more diversity: Madeleine Albright, Schwarzenegger, Ang Lee, Tesla, Fermi, Audrey Hepburn, Sataya Nadella, Jerry Yang, Cary Grant... edit 2, correction: Ang Lee's Wikipedia page says he's a resident and not a US citizen. Another alien undercutting US labour like James Cameron and Ridley Scott.

For every person you can cherry pick, I can name you 50 names of cannon fodder that nobody ever heard of.

For most of my career, I've watched as shitty body shops stuff unqualified candidates at low rates to "farm" them into more valuable workers. They don't hire onshore workers because they lose the visa leverage and hose many of them with "company town" style bullshit like corporate housing.

I'd love to have the opportunity to pull in some equally unqualified urban and rural high school students whose only prospects are Walmart, truck driving or the army and give them the same opportunity. Many would suck, but many others would flourish and build meaningful careers.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#132

Post by leggomylibro »

deong wrote: post #93
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Yep, I'm a US citizen with an American PhD in CS. I did a five year stint at a research lab in Iceland, and after two years back in the states, we're in the process of moving back to Reykjavik now, for most of the reasons you're discussing (as well as the bleak outlook for US science funding, and well, the overall bleak outlook for the US as just a suitable place to live at this point, but hey).

It's not just academia and a bleak social outlook. I've been playing around with starting a business, and the USA is not, not, NOT a good place to bootstrap anything involving R&D or manufacturing. Without enormous capital reserves to back you or political connections, you're dead before you leave the gate.

Case in point; my state offers a 40% tax break to manufacturing companies. No, sorry, the governor vetoed that. They offer a 40% tax break to ONE gargantuan manufacturing company. I'd have to pay full price.

I could compete from China. I could play on an even playing field in Europe if I'm gonna pay out the nose anyways. Or I could stay in the US and get bled like a stuck pig until incumbent players can pay a pittance for my operation's desiccated corpse. American dream, my ass...

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#133

Post by dragonwriter »

derping69 wrote: post #113
landryraccoon wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US chooses to do this though. The US can stop doing this anytime it wants to, nobody is forcing us to. If we don't like subsidizing Pharma companies maybe it should just stop doing it. It's not like Europe is asking us to. Similarly, I'm all for closing bases. If the US wants to close bases and cut military spending, who's stopping us?

Russia invading Europe is what's stopping us.

Russia is part of Europe, Russia invading other countries in Europe is presumably a threat those countries would be highly motivated to address. The US keeps forces there and defence commitments because we're afraid of how Europe might act to protect itself if we weren't there, and because we want other countries in the region to feel inclined to accommodate US interests. (In both cases, “Finlandization” is an applicable concept.)

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#134

Post by dragonwriter »

cloakandswagger wrote: post #121
krapp wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Support US withdrawing from mutual defense pacts with South Korea and Japan and NATO. I wouldn't support the US reneging on its current security agreements, particularly with Japan, since we forced them into their current pacifist regime, but if South Korea, Japan and/or NATO wanted the US out, I wouldn't oppose it. I'm afraid there's a point at which America's overwhelming military, cultural and political dominance…

People greatly underestimate the magnitude of bloodshed that would come with American isolationism. Because of Pax Americana, most people can't even grasp the concept or seriousness of, say, a neighboring nation dropping bombs on your city just because they want your territory. The US is insulated from such concerns, Europe is rife with them :)

> Because of Pax Americana, most people can't even grasp the concept or seriousness of, say, a neighboring nation dropping bombs on your city just because they want your territory.

Because of “Pax” Americana, many people have a vivid and direct understanding of a remote nation dropping bombs on your city because they aren't satisfied with your internal politics, even though they don't want to be bothered with the general burden of governing the territory.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#135

Post by refurb »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

This is interesting. I work for a Swiss company with an office in SV. We often joke about our European employees and their work-life balance.

Well, I ended up working with a team in Switzerland and holy crap, they work hard! Emails coming in at all hours of the night, meetings that go well past dinner time.

I didn't notice any difference in work life balance. Our office has the same vacation policy as HQ, so even that was the same.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#136

Post by amag »

robotresearcher wrote: post #124
sol_remmy wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

60k in Sweden: 30k after tax 60k in U.S.: 40k after tax

Then remove health costs from the US remainder, equivalent to those provided by taxes alone in Sweden.

Add to that in Sweden you also have:

  * Long (1+ years) state funded parental leave.
  * Childcare at a negligible cost.
  * Free education all the way through University.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#137

Post by ylem »

frozenport wrote: post #90
rdtsc wrote: post #36

> The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain He got a good offer from his home country. Isn't that a good thing that he gets to go home to his country and contribute there? he fact they can spare $250k for him to buy a house and $1M in grant money says a lot about China. Having been in academia for a bit, it seemed there was an oversupply of PhD in some fields. There are just not going to be enough university teachi…

$1M is a typical US startup fund, if not a little low. The $250k for a house is weird, but in the US we make deals like spousal hires that might seem strange in other places.

Startup packages vary a lot depending on the tier of the university (I have seen $300K to $1M at research universities). I imagine the housing subsidy is due to the high price of real estate in Shanghai. Some US universities offer favorable loan terms to faculty in places like UCSB, so perhaps not that strange...

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#138

Post by sjg007 »

CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

It's only a peak b/c you just need more people there to start companies. Get more people; more companies; more traction; more pay.

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#139

Post by amag »

sol_remmy wrote: post #88
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

60k in Sweden: 30k after tax 60k in U.S.: 40k after tax

According to my calculations 60k in Sweden would land you some 43k after taxes. At 60k the progressive taxes in Sweden are just starting to hurt. Somewhere north of 80k, it starts to feel like you only work for the government...

Re: The U.S. is risking an academic brain drain

#140

Post by sjg007 »

deong wrote: post #93
CorvusCrypto wrote: post #8

While I don't feel that there is risk of brain drain because of the reasons listed in the article, I do believe there is that risk. To be honest, even though many European countries don't pay as much as the US for the same job, I found much more comfort around the ideas pushed in those countries. The culture I found in Sweden for instance is one that is much better for the employees than the fast-paced top-gun style…

Yep, I'm a US citizen with an American PhD in CS. I did a five year stint at a research lab in Iceland, and after two years back in the states, we're in the process of moving back to Reykjavik now, for most of the reasons you're discussing (as well as the bleak outlook for US science funding, and well, the overall bleak outlook for the US as just a suitable place to live at this point, but hey).

Iceland is great.. most likely place to survive a nuclear winter.
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